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Offline mf-tzo

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Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« on: May 11, 2015, 07:55:12 PM »

I am sure this has been thought and discussed but I will ask anyway...

The system (or a user or whoever) creates i.e. Facebook stock.
One can trade this stock only at opening and closing price (for simplicity)..
Price is automatically updated in the BTS exchange taking the opening and closing price published in yahoo finance, if this is down from reuters, if this is down from bloomberg or whichever other centralized provider the BTS shareholders decide in advance.

Everyone now can trade all the stocks, indices, anything from anywhere with a decentralized platform in bitassets. Put some BTS in collateral and get some margin trading with leverage.

What is stopping us and we don't do something like this? Sooner or later someone else is going to do this..
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:12:15 PM by mf-tzo »

Offline starspirit

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 11:55:04 PM »
To clarify, are you suggesting to have a twice-a-day auction, where the settlement price is determined by an automatic feed?

merockstar

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 02:17:05 AM »
the impression I had was that this is in the pipeline.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 03:36:59 AM »
I am sure this has been thought and discussed but I will ask anyway...

The system (or a user or whoever) creates i.e. Facebook stock.
One can trade this stock only at opening and closing price (for simplicity)..
Price is automatically updated in the BTS exchange taking the opening and closing price published in yahoo finance, if this is down from reuters, if this is down from bloomberg or whichever other centralized provider the BTS shareholders decide in advance.

Everyone now can trade all the stocks, indices, anything from anywhere with a decentralized platform in bitassets. Put some BTS in collateral and get some margin trading with leverage.

What is stopping us and we don't do something like this? Sooner or later someone else is going to do this..
Isn't that the definition of a price feed?
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 11:03:43 AM »
What I am suggesting regarding the price feeds is to be posted automatically by a centralized source instead of the delegates. Less unnecessary work for delegates to publish stock price feeds (since they are not very active in publishing feeds in bitassets anyway).

I hope that something like this is in the pipeline.This can change everything!! Bitshares will be like +500, FXpro etc and other margin trading platforms but with decentralized software without unnecessary KYC verification and giving your bank account details to a centralized company subject to default and manipulation of your data to other sources. Liquidity will skyrocket with something like this I think.

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 11:20:11 AM »
What is stopping us and we don't do something like this?

Erm, because

What I am suggesting regarding the price feeds is to be posted automatically by a centralized source
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 03:24:45 PM »

I don't understand what is the harm of getting price feeds for stocks from centralized sources like yahoo finance. If yahoo finance is shut down, we choose another one.. What is the risk? or we just don't like at all anything that has to do with centralization? Why not create a decentralized platform by using centralized services whenever is better? Let's use them from once instead of them using us all the time.. What makes you think that the delegates will give more accurate price feeds than the centralized platforms? Let's not be completely blind about this and let's evolve when we can..

Anyway, that's just a thought and opinion. No point arguing more. You are the brains here, so feel free to do what you think is best..

Offline speedy

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 03:57:06 PM »

I don't understand what is the harm of getting price feeds for stocks from centralized sources like yahoo finance. If yahoo finance is shut down, we choose another one.. What is the risk? or we just don't like at all anything that has to do with centralization? Why not create a decentralized platform by using centralized services whenever is better? Let's use them from once instead of them using us all the time.. What makes you think that the delegates will give more accurate price feeds than the centralized platforms? Let's not be completely blind about this and let's evolve when we can..

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Offline starspirit

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 10:50:29 PM »
I think this is an interesting idea for trading assets like indices and stocks.

In the future when we have a strong bitUSD, bitEUR, bitCNY, I'd like to see the trading assets all denominated in those currencies, with margin accounts that are also denominated in the same currencies. I think this would be more attractive and familiar to traders than trading bitAssets denominated in BTS.

In that context, the settlements (which could be quarterly expiries for example) on these trading contracts could coincide with points in time where simple centralised feeds are possible. That could remove the need to rely on human-routed feeds. Continuous free-market trading could however take place right up to expiry, as there is no forced settlement that could harm any party till expiry. (Margin calls get covered at market, and its OK if that's not a "fair" price).

With bitAsset currencies like bitUSD itself, its maybe possible but a bit trickier because they need to be settled in BTS, which exacerbates the risk of BTS manipulation if settlement occurs in confined windows. With a more liquid form of collateral (such as a collateral token directly convertible to BTC) this would be less of an issue.


Offline merivercap

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 11:04:30 PM »
I am sure this has been thought and discussed but I will ask anyway...

The system (or a user or whoever) creates i.e. Facebook stock.
One can trade this stock only at opening and closing price (for simplicity)..
Price is automatically updated in the BTS exchange taking the opening and closing price published in yahoo finance, if this is down from reuters, if this is down from bloomberg or whichever other centralized provider the BTS shareholders decide in advance.

Everyone now can trade all the stocks, indices, anything from anywhere with a decentralized platform in bitassets. Put some BTS in collateral and get some margin trading with leverage.

What is stopping us and we don't do something like this? Sooner or later someone else is going to do this..

Yes.  You can use smart contract oracles for price feeds and create Total Return Swaps for any security between anyone. 

Spritzle is working on this on Ethereum
Veritaseum has a platform using Colored Coins/Bitcoin (Reggie Middleton)

They both use oracles for external price information.   

You can implement the same thing on Bitshares once it has scripting/smart contracts.
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Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 11:08:42 PM »

I don't understand what is the harm of getting price feeds for stocks from centralized sources like yahoo finance. If yahoo finance is shut down, we choose another one.. What is the risk? or we just don't like at all anything that has to do with centralization? Why not create a decentralized platform by using centralized services whenever is better? Let's use them from once instead of them using us all the time.. What makes you think that the delegates will give more accurate price feeds than the centralized platforms? Let's not be completely blind about this and let's evolve when we can..

Anyway, that's just a thought and opinion. No point arguing more. You are the brains here, so feel free to do what you think is best..

I thought you were trying to replace extrinsic feeds with some internal market, but you just want to replace delegate feeds with some other system pulling in external feeds besides delegates. I think getting prices from a centralized source this is a fine thing for a privatized bitasset to do. The market will decide whether or not there is value in it. Regulations will be a b*tch, but that's what the person running the privatized bitasset would be paid to take care of.

The delegate feeds exist so no one delegate can go rogue and tank the system. Privatized bitassets will have a different system for trust, where we hope the profit for running a private bitasset exceeds the short term gain in manipulating the system.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Trade everything without price feeds from delegates
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 12:17:03 PM »
Why regulation has to do anything with that and why someone will need to run any privatized bitassets? The system will run the bitstocks.

We only take feeds from stock prices from i.e. yahoo finance and we use this to speculate among us within Bitshares exchange. There is no physical delivery of any stock involved. It is just a bet among users across the world about the direction of the stock price. No regulation can touch bitshares as far as I understand.

The only thing that regulation can do is to forbid the bitcoin exchanges to trade BTS and cash against BTC and consequently Fiat. And even if they do that, hopefully in the future, merchants and everyone across the net will accept bitusd and you wouldn't need to convert to usd anyway..

 

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