Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Imagine..  (Read 546 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline karnal

Imagine..
« on: May 19, 2015, 07:56:17 AM »

This came to me in a dream last night..


Crypto enthusiasts are likely, in my experience, to see cryptocurrency as alternatives to the banking system.
As we know here in the forum (but the rest of the world doesn't, see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16399.0.html), BitShares is probably the best bet to preserve crypto wealth. BTC and the others are just too volatile.

I wouldn't be confortable storing my life saving  in Bitcoin because of that. But in a mixture of BitAssets? Don't see why not (when we get past 1.0 though :D).


Now, one thing led to another and I was asking myself before falling asleep.. but what about normal users, people who are not in this to be shareholders, people who just want to do their shopping online and what not. Surely BitUSD is a better choice for that than BTC, but BTC having first mover advantage.. it's not going to be easy to displace.

At this point remember one of the unique feats of BitShares.. it allows for storing wealth in BitAssets.


And here is what came to me in the dream.. what if instead of aligning ourselves against evil greedy banks in the good fight against tyranny (tm).. what if we integrate bitshares with the banking system?

Preposterous, you say! Allow me to further explain.
Keep in mind this is geared for normal users, chances are you or me wouldn't do it like this. Because we prefer having the control over our wealth. Because we prefer the increased privacy that BitShares+TITAN can provide.

Realize though that for most people these are not true. It's probably only  a matter of time until Jane Doe loses all her funds due to not having a backup or the wallet, or if this thing takes off, you can bet that there will be many a malware waiting behind that click to penetrate your BTS like Sansa Stark couldn't even imagine.


So, say Jane has an account at HSBC. She wants to send some money to her daughter who happens to be studying in Kenya!
At the present moment her options are basically a wire transfer (fees) or Western Union (moar fees). [Yes, BTC would work; if it's cashed out quickly the wealth should be preserved.. but how many Janes have you seen using BTC lately?]

What if BitAssets were integrated into Jane's bank system, and she could simply do a "BitShares transfer" from the online banking page ?

Let us say this is a transfer made in USD. Jane has no BitUSD, but she has USD.
So Jane goes online, sends 2000 USD to her daughter who is in Kenya, and selects "Use the BTS Network (TM) for this transfer".

Instead of outrageous fees and waiting for a few days, there are no fees (though banks being banks, they will probably still charge a very small fee), and it is instant.

The USD gets deducted from her account, the bank sends BitUSD to the bank in Kenya with a memo identifying her daughters' account, and instantly the daughter gets the money (the BitUSD are converted to USD as needed).


For a non-technical person who already has a bank account, this has several advantages:
  - 0 setup time.
  - Not giving personal data to yet another company.
  - None/low fees, instant transfers, vs lots of fees and waiting for days.

The Bank wins something here as well since they are likely to charge a small fee for processing it through BitShares. Fine, Jane thinks. Better pay $5 than $50.

BitShares sees widespread adoption and shareholders are happy (and for some reason all smoking lots of cuban cigars).


Now I'm not saying it would be easy to have the banks integrate their systems with the BitShares network... but I am saying that with focused effort it could be possible.



What do you think? Pipe dream? Any angle I missed ? (It was only a dream, after all :D)




jakub

  • Guest
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 09:04:00 AM »
I like your dream a lot.

I've always believed we can keep our freedom & privacy in BitShares AND still integrate with the current banking system.
Be a bridge between the world of crypto and the current financial system WITHOUT compromising any of our values.
Sooner or later somebody is gonna do it and currently BitShares with its bit-assets technology is in the best position to take this role.

It's a bit dangerous path (look what's happened to Ripple) but if carefully executed it can be a massive success.

The only problem I can see is this: what is going to motivate banks to go along with this?
It'll be quite clear for them that we are trying to steal their wire transferring business and undermine their hefty spreads.
But since they started talking to Ripple, they might as well start talking to us.

So we might be able to do what Ripple clearly failed to do.
We are in a far better position than Ripple because our technology makes it very hard for us to compromise our values.

Offline Ben Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Integrity & Innovation, powered by Bitshares
    • View Profile
  • BTS: benjojo
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 09:32:21 AM »
It is certainly an interesting dream and worth considering.  Ripple was always design to appeal to existing banking institutions because it is designed to retain centralized control over the network.  That is the only reason some banks are interested in Ripple and why they will never be interested in Bitshares......at least not until they have no choice but to be interested.

The existing financial system is insolvent.  Debt is not an asset no matter how much they want it to be.  Why chase their interest at all?  In short order the hollow shells they are will crumble to dust.  It is the new, untainted financial institutions that will inevitably rise from the Bitshares ecosystem that is the exiting prospect.

jakub

  • Guest
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 10:26:08 AM »
Ripple was always design to appeal to existing banking institutions because it is designed to retain centralized control over the network.
As far as I know Ripple does not have "centralized control over the network". I don't think they can stop a payment from happening.
Their gateways have more power in that respect (as they can refuse to honor their IOS) but still Ripple can put pressure on a gateway to force it stick to Ripple's policy.
This is what happened recently.


Offline Thom

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 01:03:59 AM »
This came to me in a dream last night..

What do you think? Pipe dream? Any angle I missed ? (It was only a dream, after all :D)

You got the last sentence right at least, it's only a dream. I think it's a nightmare actually.

What's in it for the banks? Why would they adopt a blockchain based transfer system as you describe when they already basically have a monopoly that is making them money in higher fees and that they are in full control of?

I am glad that some of you people that wish to integrate with the mainstream financial world at least believe in the reasons the rest of us do about having control over our finances, but you're fooling yourself if you think integration will allow you to do that. You're blind to the dangers and ignore the history of how we got in the situation we're now in, with the banking system and manipulated financial systems in firm control of the majority of the planets wealth.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 01:50:42 AM »
This is not likely to happen with existing banks.

Bytemaster already stated the reasons in the last hangout.. it's cheaper and easier for them to just create their own suited to their purposes.

However, an online bank.. a new one.. that does integrate like you talk about providing the exchange is possible like you described. With the right plan/people it can be done. It can come bottom up.. or top down. Which way it happens will determine which way the profits will flow. I think the world is ready for such an alternative.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 02:06:28 PM by DataSecurityNode »
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | World's First Decentralized Tournament Platform Built Entirely on the Blockchain!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline fuzzy

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 07:10:50 AM »
I think the world is ready for such an alternative.

Lord I hope so...
BROWNIE==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits Welcome to  the Sharing Economy w/ BeyondBitcoin.org Partners--ShareBits.io & OpenLedger.info
TIP FORMAT: #sharebits "ForumHandleInQuotes" Quanity Token_Name

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12175
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BTS: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 07:24:31 AM »
Yesterday I saw a documentation about the "Deutsche Bank" and how they made money by manipulating the LIBOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor#Reliability_and_scandal)

In essence, banks just state somewhere for what rates they lend money .. and in theory (and unfortunately also in practice) no one verifies these numbers .. it's about trust in a centralized 'exchange/bank' ..
BUT .. with lending/bonds on the blockchain .. this becomes verifiable!!! no manipulation possible!!
Damn ... the next few months will be interesting ..
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline Ben Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Integrity & Innovation, powered by Bitshares
    • View Profile
  • BTS: benjojo
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 07:33:28 AM »
Yesterday I saw a documentation about the "Deutsche Bank" and how they made money by manipulating the LIBOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor#Reliability_and_scandal)

In essence, banks just state somewhere for what rates they lend money .. and in theory (and unfortunately also in practice) no one verifies these numbers .. it's about trust in a centralized 'exchange/bank' ..
BUT .. with lending/bonds on the blockchain .. this becomes verifiable!!! no manipulation possible!!
Damn ... the next few months will be interesting ..

Boy oh boy oh boy you are right about that! It's really getting interesting now!

Offline cass

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4328
  • /(┬.┬)\
    • View Profile
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 07:41:52 AM »
This came to me in a dream last night..

What do you think? Pipe dream? Any angle I missed ? (It was only a dream, after all :D)

You got the last sentence right at least, it's only a dream. I think it's a nightmare actually.

What's in it for the banks? Why would they adopt a blockchain based transfer system as you describe when they already basically have a monopoly that is making them money in higher fees and that they are in full control of?

I am glad that some of you people that wish to integrate with the mainstream financial world at least believe in the reasons the rest of us do about having control over our finances, but you're fooling yourself if you think integration will allow you to do that. You're blind to the dangers and ignore the history of how we got in the situation we're now in, with the banking system and manipulated financial systems in firm control of the majority of the planets wealth.

pity but true IMO…
█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline karnal

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 08:26:58 AM »
What's in it for the banks? Why would they adopt a blockchain based transfer system as you describe when they already basically have a monopoly that is making them money in higher fees and that they are in full control of?

The fees question was one of the first things I thought about, of course. I do not have a clear answer, it could be that with substantially smaller fees, substantially more people would transact (this would also bite visa/mastercard tremendously, thought about that?), and the net gain for the bank would be positive.

I am glad that some of you people that wish to integrate with the mainstream financial world at least believe in the reasons the rest of us do about having control over our finances, but you're fooling yourself if you think integration will allow you to do that. You're blind to the dangers and ignore the history of how we got in the situation we're now in, with the banking system and manipulated financial systems in firm control of the majority of the planets wealth.

Well, I would personally never use BitShares through the bank, to me it defeats the purpose. But you and me are not most people, most people do not want the burden of having even 10K USD worth of virtual tokens in their virus-prone nsa-backdoored malware-infected windows system.

Most people are not researching about crypto and mostly everyone seems happy to provide whatever information the banks/governments provide. It pisses me off to no end how the majority has become so docile and what not, but lets be practical here .. having bitshares integrated with the banking system would in no way (well, in maybe one way, which nobody has brought up yet and I'm surprised that is so.. I won't elaborate on one potential massive downside just yet) detract from your experience or my experience of the network.

Offline karnal

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 08:30:37 AM »
This is not likely to happen with existing banks.

Bytemaster already stated the reasons in the last hangout.. it's cheaper and easier for them to just create their own suited to their purposes.

However, an online bank.. a new one.. that does integrate like you talk about providing the exchange is possible like you described. With the right plan/people it can be done. I can come bottom up.. or top down. Which way it happens will determine which way the profits will flow. I think the world is ready for such an alternative.

That did not cross my mind.. might be way over the top though. The regulations and the bureaucracy must be INTENSE.

Still, a very fine point .. hitting that metaphorical pipe dream like never before (:D), lets say 5 of us independently started 5 online banks in diverse jurisdictions .. then we could already cover a good geographical area, provide sensible banking & have bitshares integration there from day 1.

Now that is a pipe dream.

Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Imagine..
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 02:24:53 PM »
This is not likely to happen with existing banks.

Bytemaster already stated the reasons in the last hangout.. it's cheaper and easier for them to just create their own suited to their purposes.

However, an online bank.. a new one.. that does integrate like you talk about providing the exchange is possible like you described. With the right plan/people it can be done. I can come bottom up.. or top down. Which way it happens will determine which way the profits will flow. I think the world is ready for such an alternative.

That did not cross my mind.. might be way over the top though. The regulations and the bureaucracy must be INTENSE.

Still, a very fine point .. hitting that metaphorical pipe dream like never before (:D), lets say 5 of us independently started 5 online banks in diverse jurisdictions .. then we could already cover a good geographical area, provide sensible banking & have bitshares integration there from day 1.

Now that is a pipe dream.

This is how existing exchanges work largely. Yes, a large part of the business model would be to hire a consultant who can navigate the necessary regulations to get this setup in a way to work.. connect with existing systems for remitance like for online bill payment,email money transfers etc.. and at least one relationship with one bank to access their ATM network.. and of course a reserve. That is all the unfun stuff, the fun comes when you market it to a population that is frustrated with the rising cost of doing banking. How do you think Paypal got started? They did this like 17 years ago too! Can you imagine how painful it must have been back then? Lot easier today I think. Like I said though, you just got to get the right people involved.

It is more likely that one will start and establish in their space, and then seek out remote offices to be established in target demographics where transactions are likely to be high. Given the critical need for reliability and dependability of that office operation, it's going to more likely be with an already established company.. not just some guy here. :). The network has to operate in such a way that customers never have a problem, and are so impressed by our efficiency that they can't help but rave to everyone about it.. with the help of some social share icons with every transaction of course. :P "I just sent $100 with Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net! You can too. " <insert image of beautiful young people holding out their Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net cards like concert tickets>.

Let's just hope Bill Gates doesnt show up and trash our operation the way he did to Homer.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | World's First Decentralized Tournament Platform Built Entirely on the Blockchain!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline kenCode

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
    • View Profile
Re: Imagine..
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2015, 03:22:03 PM »
Yes, this is possible, here is how it could happen.
A delegate will propose a plan like this that a worker will carry out if we vote them in.
I want to pay my mortgage in BitUSD.

Yeah, me too! +5%
SWIFT anyone?
kenCode - BitShares Munich
BlockPay, Stealth, C-IPFS, Carbon, Echo, LiqBot, LiqNot, Meshnet...

 

Google+