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Offline itnom

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Hi Guys,

Fellowtraveler from Open Transactiosn just put up an update on the Open Transactions development. They seem to use Namecoin for identity and bitmessage for decentralization of the order book.

Their solutions seem to be very good and could be an added layer to all DACs. Maybe somebody from Invictus Innovations could tell them about potential integration of the Bitshares and Keyotee DAC? I think that any kind of network effect through software integration would speed things up tremendously!

Reddit post: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1tqepn/new_opentransactions_videos_of_new_desktop_app/
Videos:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1elJotjR_t6UlJjbG5wSmFJT1E/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1elJotjR_t6OS1pV3duMEpWSGs/edit

2014 is shaping up to be the breakthrough year for DACs. Haven't been this excited since bitcoin in 2010!

itnom
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Offline VEscudero

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 08:56:04 PM »
+1
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Offline smiley35

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 06:26:37 PM »
I am also curious if anyone knows whether the assets mentioned in the OT video are more like colored coins or bitshares.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 10:54:08 PM »
I am also curious if anyone knows whether the assets mentioned in the OT video are more like colored coins or bitshares.

Everything they are doing thus far is colored coins (digital bearer bonds).
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline smiley35

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 01:10:54 AM »
I am also curious if anyone knows whether the assets mentioned in the OT video are more like colored coins or bitshares.

Everything they are doing thus far is colored coins (digital bearer bonds).

I see. This is pretty cool. So it's essentially just a nice looking user friendly bitcoin client that is integrating the cutting edge bitcoin features currently being added to the btc source.

We should just think of it as a new age bitcoin client. Keyhotee on the other hand is a protocol level above this. Keyhotee will manage many different crypto currency clients as well as the other features discussed (communications, password management, Identity, ect.)

Am I thinking about this in the right way?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 01:12:55 AM by smiley35 »

Offline bytemaster

Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 01:13:44 AM »
I am also curious if anyone knows whether the assets mentioned in the OT video are more like colored coins or bitshares.

Everything they are doing thus far is colored coins (digital bearer bonds).

I see. This is pretty cool. So it's essentially just a nice looking user friendly bitcoin client that is integrating the cutting edge bitcoin features currently being added to the btc source.

We should just think of it as a new age bitcoin client essentially. Keyhotee on the other hand is a protocol level above this. Keyhotee will manage many different crypto currency clients as well as the other features discussed (communications, password management, Identity, ect.)

Am I thinking about this in the right way?

OpenTransactions is a system of federated servers that manage IOUs in a way that you can prove your balance with the server.  If I had to state the single biggest flaw with OT it would be its dependence on the legal system to 'punish' cheaters as it does not prevent cheating, it only makes it hard to do so without getting caught.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline fellowtraveler

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 05:44:42 AM »
OpenTransactions is a system of federated servers that manage IOUs in a way that you can prove your balance with the server.  If I had to state the single biggest flaw with OT it would be its dependence on the legal system to 'punish' cheaters as it does not prevent cheating, it only makes it hard to do so without getting caught.

IMO it's a mistake to think of Open-Transactions as being in competition with any chain-based system. OT is more likely to be used with BitShares, rather than as some form of competition against them, as should be obvious to anyone who views the videos that were posted in this thread.

That said, I feel it necessary to point out a few things about OT to make it clear that OT is dependent on cryptographic protocols, not on the legal system.

First, OT is unable to forge your receipts. This is because the client-side forms the receipts, and the server only counter-signs them. Furthermore, the current account balance is on the receipt. Therefore the client will never have to worry about a changed balance, or falsified receipt, because the server does not have the client's private key.

Second, any blockchain-based currencies used in OT, such as Bitcoin, will be stored in multi-sig voting pools on the blockchain, which makes it impossible for any OT server to steal any Bitcoins that users are transacting on that server.

So right there, the OT server cannot forge your transactions, cannot change your balance, and cannot steal your coins. This is without any need of legal intervention, since it's based on public-key cryptography.

The only possible crime left would be inflation. However, the voting pools protocol fixes this as well, because all OT servers in a given voting pool perform real-time audits on the receipts from the other OT servers in that pool. (They have an incentive to do this because users have the power to move their funds between the servers in the pool, and to withdraw their funds from the pool even without the permission of the server being used.)

Therefore OT is not built based on some legal dependency.

There is still one vulnerability left: If, say, 18 out of 20 servers in the pool collude, they can steal all the coins in the pool. We do not deceive ourselves that we can completely eliminate risk -- OT's philosophy is more based on the effective distribution of risk. Even Bitcoin itself does not eliminate risk entirely, but merely distributes it effectively so as to make it secure for all practical purposes. Since OT is client-centric, the next level is to distribute funds across multiple pools, at the client level.

In sum, to those who think of OT as some form of competition to BitShares, understand they are completely different technologies and likely will be used together -- neither will replace the other. And to those who believe that OT is based on the legal system, I assure you it is not. OT aims to eliminate the need for any legal system by replacing it with cryptographic protocols.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 06:01:19 AM by fellowtraveler »

Offline bytemaster

Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 05:46:16 AM »
Welcome fellowtraveler,  I agree your system complements what we are doing.  I look forward to seeing how they can be used together!
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline fellowtraveler

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 04:17:42 AM »
Welcome fellowtraveler,  I agree your system complements what we are doing.  I look forward to seeing how they can be used together!

Here are the ways that I would think:

1. Just as we use a Namecoin address as the "source" for OT credentials, we could add a similar subclass to use a Keyhotee address. As long as Keyhotee allows you to post credential hashes to your blockchain, then OT should be able to look up that address and verify those credentials. (Same thing we're doing with Namecoin.)

2. Just as BTC currency units can be used in OT, any other blockchain-based currency units could be used in OT as well. In this case, the most important feature is multi-sig, since voting pools are necessary for the safe storage of the coins. So I would definitely recommend that you support Multisig in your blockchain.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 06:17:34 AM »
Welcome fellowtraveler,  I agree your system complements what we are doing.  I look forward to seeing how they can be used together!

Here are the ways that I would think:

1. Just as we use a Namecoin address as the "source" for OT credentials, we could add a similar subclass to use a Keyhotee address. As long as Keyhotee allows you to post credential hashes to your blockchain, then OT should be able to look up that address and verify those credentials. (Same thing we're doing with Namecoin.)

2. Just as BTC currency units can be used in OT, any other blockchain-based currency units could be used in OT as well. In this case, the most important feature is multi-sig, since voting pools are necessary for the safe storage of the coins. So I would definitely recommend that you support Multisig in your blockchain.

Both things are supported in the design.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2014, 01:32:19 PM »
OpenTransactions is a system of federated servers that manage IOUs in a way that you can prove your balance with the server.  If I had to state the single biggest flaw with OT it would be its dependence on the legal system to 'punish' cheaters as it does not prevent cheating, it only makes it hard to do so without getting caught.

IMO it's a mistake to think of Open-Transactions as being in competition with any chain-based system. OT is more likely to be used with BitShares, rather than as some form of competition against them, as should be obvious to anyone who views the videos that were posted in this thread.

That said, I feel it necessary to point out a few things about OT to make it clear that OT is dependent on cryptographic protocols, not on the legal system.

First, OT is unable to forge your receipts. This is because the client-side forms the receipts, and the server only counter-signs them. Furthermore, the current account balance is on the receipt. Therefore the client will never have to worry about a changed balance, or falsified receipt, because the server does not have the client's private key.

Second, any blockchain-based currencies used in OT, such as Bitcoin, will be stored in multi-sig voting pools on the blockchain, which makes it impossible for any OT server to steal any Bitcoins that users are transacting on that server.

So right there, the OT server cannot forge your transactions, cannot change your balance, and cannot steal your coins. This is without any need of legal intervention, since it's based on public-key cryptography.

The only possible crime left would be inflation. However, the voting pools protocol fixes this as well, because all OT servers in a given voting pool perform real-time audits on the receipts from the other OT servers in that pool. (They have an incentive to do this because users have the power to move their funds between the servers in the pool, and to withdraw their funds from the pool even without the permission of the server being used.)

Therefore OT is not built based on some legal dependency.

There is still one vulnerability left: If, say, 18 out of 20 servers in the pool collude, they can steal all the coins in the pool. We do not deceive ourselves that we can completely eliminate risk -- OT's philosophy is more based on the effective distribution of risk. Even Bitcoin itself does not eliminate risk entirely, but merely distributes it effectively so as to make it secure for all practical purposes. Since OT is client-centric, the next level is to distribute funds across multiple pools, at the client level.

In sum, to those who think of OT as some form of competition to BitShares, understand they are completely different technologies and likely will be used together -- neither will replace the other. And to those who believe that OT is based on the legal system, I assure you it is not. OT aims to eliminate the need for any legal system by replacing it with cryptographic protocols.

I've been following Open Transactions for a while and it has been under development since before there was a Bitcoin. As a result there are a lot of elegant solutions in the code base which should not be discounted. Any chance to attain an alliance of mutual benefit should be a chance worth taking in my opinion.
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Offline fellowtraveler

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Re: Potential integration of Bitshares and keyhotee with Open Transactions
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 10:06:17 AM »
FYI:

"Comparison of OT with Ripple, Paypal, and Colored Coins, with regards to Trust."

http://opentransactions.org/forum/index.php?topic=3759.0

Feel free to comment in that thread with regards to Bitshares.

 

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