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Offline jsidhu

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Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« on: May 27, 2015, 05:13:18 PM »

Hi guys,

Based on my technical analysis I had strong suspicion that bitshares was to rise or finish higher than the last 30 days so a month ago I went all in with my BTS shorting bitUSD @ 250 BTS/bitUSD. It since expired yesterday yet there are no transactions or anything showing me what happened. There is a bug in the GUI when I goto the cover tab and click cover, the expired column shows up but dissappears when I close the cover popup dialog box.

I understand that the market engine put up a buy for bitUSD at the call price for the amount that was owed. My questions are:

1) Why does it still need to hold my collateral still?
2) Why was there no tx showing the bitUSD buy? Leaves you wondering what happened.
3) Where is my BTS? I should have more than I started with.
4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
5) Are there any plans to fix this with bitasset 3.0?

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

Thanks!
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Offline liondani

Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 05:39:54 PM »
was it one big short  or more than one?

The collateral will released only if the order is covered in total...
I assume only a % of your short is covered from the system


PS

4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
Maybe...  Except you get a loan of BTS, cover manually your order , and give the BTS back...
If BTS go higher you will be lucky you not covered early    8)

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

re-shorting means you need more BTS... if you have them but you are not confident the price goes higher ... you could buy with your BTS bitUSD with a premium an cover your position.... if not now maybe a bit later when the premium goes down due bitasset.v3...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 05:47:30 PM by liondani »
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Offline Xeldal

Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 05:51:36 PM »
Hi guys,

Based on my technical analysis I had strong suspicion that bitshares was to rise or finish higher than the last 30 days so a month ago I went all in with my BTS shorting bitUSD @ 250 BTS/bitUSD. It since expired yesterday yet there are no transactions or anything showing me what happened. There is a bug in the GUI when I goto the cover tab and click cover, the expired column shows up but dissappears when I close the cover popup dialog box.

I understand that the market engine put up a buy for bitUSD at the call price for the amount that was owed. My questions are:

1) Why does it still need to hold my collateral still?
2) Why was there no tx showing the bitUSD buy? Leaves you wondering what happened.
3) Where is my BTS? I should have more than I started with.
4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
5) Are there any plans to fix this with bitasset 3.0?

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

Thanks!

1) It will hold your collateral until the position is closed.  You can do this manually by purchasing bitUSD off the market to cover.
2)There likely hasn't been one yet.  The expired short has put a buy order at the feed to purchase bitUSD to cover the short.
3)Its still locked as collateral until you cover it with the required amount of bitUSD.  Its cheaper now to buy bitUSD so the collateral you get back will exceed what you have to pay to cover. You'll have a profit.
4)I don't know.  I assume in the order which they were placed??
5)This is how it is supposed to work, very similar to what you can expect in BTA2.0. Though I think you should be able to purchase bitUSD with your collateral to cover.  I'm not sure if this is going to be changed in the next update or not.

Offline jsidhu

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 06:31:32 PM »
Hi guys,

Based on my technical analysis I had strong suspicion that bitshares was to rise or finish higher than the last 30 days so a month ago I went all in with my BTS shorting bitUSD @ 250 BTS/bitUSD. It since expired yesterday yet there are no transactions or anything showing me what happened. There is a bug in the GUI when I goto the cover tab and click cover, the expired column shows up but dissappears when I close the cover popup dialog box.

I understand that the market engine put up a buy for bitUSD at the call price for the amount that was owed. My questions are:

1) Why does it still need to hold my collateral still?
2) Why was there no tx showing the bitUSD buy? Leaves you wondering what happened.
3) Where is my BTS? I should have more than I started with.
4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
5) Are there any plans to fix this with bitasset 3.0?

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

Thanks!

1) It will hold your collateral until the position is closed.  You can do this manually by purchasing bitUSD off the market to cover.
2)There likely hasn't been one yet.  The expired short has put a buy order at the feed to purchase bitUSD to cover the short.
3)Its still locked as collateral until you cover it with the required amount of bitUSD.  Its cheaper now to buy bitUSD so the collateral you get back will exceed what you have to pay to cover. You'll have a profit.
4)I don't know.  I assume in the order which they were placed??
5)This is how it is supposed to work, very similar to what you can expect in BTA2.0. Though I think you should be able to purchase bitUSD with your collateral to cover.  I'm not sure if this is going to be changed in the next update or not.

You can cover expired shorts? I don't get why my collateral needs to be locked up if im not short anymore. I end up taking on full risk after my short expires because i have to wait until someone buys at the feed (or buy more to cover expired short?)
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Offline jsidhu

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 06:34:57 PM »
was it one big short  or more than one?

The collateral will released only if the order is covered in total...
I assume only a % of your short is covered from the system


PS

4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
Maybe...  Except you get a loan of BTS, cover manually your order , and give the BTS back...
If BTS go higher you will be lucky you not covered early    8)

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

re-shorting means you need more BTS... if you have them but you are not confident the price goes higher ... you could buy with your BTS bitUSD with a premium an cover your position.... if not now maybe a bit later when the premium goes down due bitasset.v3...

How do you check what % was covered by the system?
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 07:43:24 PM »
You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.

Offline Xeldal

Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 08:44:07 PM »
Hi guys,

Based on my technical analysis I had strong suspicion that bitshares was to rise or finish higher than the last 30 days so a month ago I went all in with my BTS shorting bitUSD @ 250 BTS/bitUSD. It since expired yesterday yet there are no transactions or anything showing me what happened. There is a bug in the GUI when I goto the cover tab and click cover, the expired column shows up but dissappears when I close the cover popup dialog box.

I understand that the market engine put up a buy for bitUSD at the call price for the amount that was owed. My questions are:

1) Why does it still need to hold my collateral still?
2) Why was there no tx showing the bitUSD buy? Leaves you wondering what happened.
3) Where is my BTS? I should have more than I started with.
4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
5) Are there any plans to fix this with bitasset 3.0?

since its already expired, I can't cover anymore by reshorting, but im not even sure that is the right thing to do.

Thanks!

1) It will hold your collateral until the position is closed.  You can do this manually by purchasing bitUSD off the market to cover.
2)There likely hasn't been one yet.  The expired short has put a buy order at the feed to purchase bitUSD to cover the short.
3)Its still locked as collateral until you cover it with the required amount of bitUSD.  Its cheaper now to buy bitUSD so the collateral you get back will exceed what you have to pay to cover. You'll have a profit.
4)I don't know.  I assume in the order which they were placed??
5)This is how it is supposed to work, very similar to what you can expect in BTA2.0. Though I think you should be able to purchase bitUSD with your collateral to cover.  I'm not sure if this is going to be changed in the next update or not.

You can cover expired shorts? I don't get why my collateral needs to be locked up if im not short anymore. I end up taking on full risk after my short expires because i have to wait until someone buys at the feed (or buy more to cover expired short?)

I'm sure you can although I'm not sure of the process, I havn't been able to use my desktop client for a long time now, crashes everytime I enter the exchange, so I'd be guessing.  I assume in the COVER tab you can click on the order and cover if you have bitUSD available? just like you could if the order was still open, IDK.  Your collateral needs to be locked up because you *are still short.  Until you buy back the bitUSD.

You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.

I'm not sure why you suggest bitCNY.  Is it because of the more liquid market / closer peg?  You'd obviously still be at the mercy of CNY/USD  but that is fairly stable I guess.  The only way to truely neutralize your position is to purchase bitUSD equal to what you owe on your shorts and either wait for them to fill or figure out how to cover them.  I'll attempt to get my client working again and look around.


Offline jsidhu

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 08:48:24 PM »
You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.
I can neutralize by buying bitusd of my entire collateral ampunt  but im not prepared to invest that much over 10k bitUSD more at this point
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 08:51:01 PM »
I suggested bitCNY because like you said, it is the only other asset that is fairly liquid and near the peg... I'm just guessing based on the past, that CNY/USD will be much less volatile that bts/USD.  Right now there is so little bitUSD for sale that it is impossible to cover a larger position.

Offline Riverhead

Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 08:51:40 PM »
You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.
I can neutralize by buying bitusd of my entire collateral ampunt  but im not prepared to invest that much over 10k bitUSD more at this point

Only 50% of your collateral amount needs to be purchased and right now since BTS has about doubled since 30 days ago you can buy your bitUSD, cash out the short, and have a nice profit. I just did that with my Gold and Silver shorts. Mmm...tasty BTS :) .

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 08:56:18 PM »
You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.
I can neutralize by buying bitusd of my entire collateral ampunt  but im not prepared to invest that much over 10k bitUSD more at this point

Only 50% of your collateral amount needs to be purchased and right now since BTS has about doubled since 30 days ago you can buy your bitUSD, cash out the short, and have a nice profit. I just did that with my Gold and Silver shorts. Mmm...tasty BTS :) .

You will have to pay a large premium above the peg.  There's too little bts for sale right now, which has frozen the market.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 09:17:13 PM »
Right now it would cost me $1382 in bitcoin to buy 1000 bitUSD using blocktrades.info

It would cost me $1433 in bts to buy 1000 bitUSD using blocktrades.info

That massive premium to buy bitUSD is because very few bitUSD longs are selling and none are selling even close to the peg.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 09:57:05 PM »
4) There are $80k at the call price, in what order would my position be resolved? It may take months for this position to unwind correct?
4)I don't know.  I assume in the order which they were placed??

They are filled in order of collateralization (that is lowest call price first)
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Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 10:00:21 PM »
You can cover expired shorts? I don't get why my collateral needs to be locked up if im not short anymore. I end up taking on full risk after my short expires because i have to wait until someone buys at the feed (or buy more to cover expired short?)

Don't think of it as expired shorts. You are still short, but your short is now callable. It doesn't mean you will get called, but you may - and it will be called in order of collateralization (call price). This is exactly how BitAsset 2.0 is supposed to work as well.

everyone else's advice applies, I just wanted to make sure it was clear you are technically still short and can remain short if you'd like in this current "callable" state, or you can roll over your shorts and in the process produce some nice BTS for yourself
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Offline liondani

Re: Stuck collateral at call price after expired shorts
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2015, 04:33:50 AM »
You could neutralize your bitUSD short by going long bitCNY... I know its not a pure play, but it will reduce the exposure you have to bts until your bitUSD short is covered by the system.

clever  ;)
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