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Offline xxeyes

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For fun, I have been thinking about how Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency, really) could facilitate a better model for democracy.  I describe a crude model I devised here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37suw8/how_might_bitcoin_facilitate_a_better_model_for/

I lurk this forum and value the opinions of people here, so I thought I would provide the link in case anyone is interested in reading it.

Offline Permie

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Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 09:34:23 AM »
I would say that BitShares is about freedom and is more suited to a anarchic free market society.
Taxes cannot be collected without force.
The taxation and distribution of funds by a single entity, even if it's a blockchain, is going to be less efficient than an anarchic free market.
The prediction market idea you pose sounds must better than the current 'democracy' we have now, but the best solution in my opinion is to allow everyone to be free to use their real voting power (capital) to allocate however they choose.
Over time the most popular and most profitable businesses and industries will thrive.

I think this kind of blockchain democracy will also be less honest than a completely free market. The "solution" to a "perfect" society will have a near infinite number of parameters as the preferences of EVERYONE in society will be catered to.
It is therefore impossible to present all of these parameters to a public blockchain vote.
Individuals will have a tendency to 'vote' in the prediction market in a selfish way and not necessarily vote on behalf society as a whole.
A free market does benefit all of society because if there is demand for a particular product or service profit seeking entrepreneurs will move into the market to provide. There are no barriers to entry so the poor are not excluded and power is not consolidated with the few.
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Offline fuzzy

Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 07:21:08 AM »
I would say that BitShares is about freedom and is more suited to a anarchic free market society.
Taxes cannot be collected without force.
The taxation and distribution of funds by a single entity, even if it's a blockchain, is going to be less efficient than an anarchic free market.
The prediction market idea you pose sounds must better than the current 'democracy' we have now, but the best solution in my opinion is to allow everyone to be free to use their real voting power (capital) to allocate however they choose.
Over time the most popular and most profitable businesses and industries will thrive.

I think this kind of blockchain democracy will also be less honest than a completely free market. The "solution" to a "perfect" society will have a near infinite number of parameters as the preferences of EVERYONE in society will be catered to.
It is therefore impossible to present all of these parameters to a public blockchain vote.
Individuals will have a tendency to 'vote' in the prediction market in a selfish way and not necessarily vote on behalf society as a whole.
A free market does benefit all of society because if there is demand for a particular product or service profit seeking entrepreneurs will move into the market to provide. There are no barriers to entry so the poor are not excluded and power is not consolidated with the few.

I agree with everything above but I will also say that there are times when people will just find no better solution than a vote on some level.  Blockchains make all "votes" (whether prediction market votes--i.e. addition and withdrawal of tokens to predict outcomes) or one person, one vote dynamics...etc.  The key is transparency.  I mean jeez just think how much better things would be if representatives could be voted out at any time. 
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Offline Thom

Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 05:37:27 PM »
I would say that BitShares is about freedom and is more suited to a anarchic free market society.
Taxes cannot be collected without force.
The taxation and distribution of funds by a single entity, even if it's a blockchain, is going to be less efficient than an anarchic free market.
The prediction market idea you pose sounds must better than the current 'democracy' we have now, but the best solution in my opinion is to allow everyone to be free to use their real voting power (capital) to allocate however they choose.
Over time the most popular and most profitable businesses and industries will thrive.

I think this kind of blockchain democracy will also be less honest than a completely free market. The "solution" to a "perfect" society will have a near infinite number of parameters as the preferences of EVERYONE in society will be catered to.
It is therefore impossible to present all of these parameters to a public blockchain vote.
Individuals will have a tendency to 'vote' in the prediction market in a selfish way and not necessarily vote on behalf society as a whole.
A free market does benefit all of society because if there is demand for a particular product or service profit seeking entrepreneurs will move into the market to provide. There are no barriers to entry so the poor are not excluded and power is not consolidated with the few.

 +5% Well said Permie. I do agree with your statement I highlighted, provided you're talking about a truly free market.

However, I don't think it will be a TRULY free market if on and off ramps are subject to regulation by the mainstream banking world. Through that mechanism they can control the majority of the BitShares "money supply". I put that in quotes b/c I'm not talking about the number of BTS fixed by the code, but rather the flow of funds or the "velocity of money", which is highly influenced by the rate of adoption which is highly influenced by on/off ramp availability and the friction those ramps impose. Mainstream is the "whale" that controls the BitShares spec of a marketplace like a damn controls the level of a river.

I see involvement with mainstream banking as a shortcut to grow BitShares adoption and marketcap, but long term it will come at the cost of freedom. It won't be apparent initially, but over time more and more restrictions will be imposed until the day when you look around at that future BitShares ecosystem and ask, how did we get here, why do I have to pay so much in taxes on my crypto transactions and what is causing such major swings in the ecosystem's liquidity? What happened to all the advantages crypto used to provide? Do you think the existing money powers are gonna just sit in the bleachers and watch as we build a system that will make theirs obsolete? Don't fool yourself. This is not a game, this is a  v e r y  serious struggle for freedom that will either dramatically change the course of the future or leave posterity cursing us for failing.

This project was started in pursuit of a true free market and financial freedom from centralized control. I'm not exaggerating when I say it is about changing the world in a very profound way. It is about creating a new and independent alternative, as a means of boycotting the corrupt system and starting fresh. Those who are looking primarily at profit and not principles just don't get it. They are blind to the mistakes of the past and fail to learn from them.

If we could finance the continued development of the ecosystem while staying focused on that grandiose goal I believe BitShares would gain adoption, albeit far more slowly, simply b/c it is far superior in every respect to the mainstream alternatives.  More and more people will begin to see that as time goes on. BitShares is a far better mousetrap. Most people gravitate towards freedom, but it is fearful to others or they are under the illusion their wants and desires will come without taking on the responsibility to achieve them themselves, so they believe in the promise of others who steal from the future (i.e. debt) to pay for the excesses of the present.

I think the dev team is struggling to remain firmly dedicated to the foundational principles under the weight of practical pressures such as the impatience of major investors and the reduction of enthusiasm of the staff and community that occurs on a project with lofty, long term goals. Face it, most people are not here for the long term, principled vision of BitShares, they're here primarily for monetary gain, and they want it as fast as they can get it.

Face it, the BItShares ecosystem is not yet self sustaining. If it were we wouldn't be all that concerned about marketcap. If it were we would be attracting enough new shareholders (i.e. grassroots investors) to grow the dev staff, fund effective marketing and expand the product features.

Investment capitol is pouring into crypto space at least as fast if not faster than money flowed into dot coms in the 90s. Very shortly we will hopefully all find out what source of capital is fueling the impending wave of changes to the BitShares ecosystem.
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Offline Permie

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Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 06:14:24 PM »
Quote
I see involvement with mainstream banking as a shortcut to grow BitShares adoption and marketcap, but long term it will come at the cost of freedom. It won't be apparent initially, but over time more and more restrictions will be imposed until the day when you look around at that future BitShares ecosystem and ask, how did we get here, why do I have to pay so much in taxes on my crypto transactions and what is causing such major swings in the ecosystem's liquidity? What happened to all the advantages crypto used to provide? Do you think the existing money powers are gonna just sit in the bleachers and watch as we build a system that will make theirs obsolete? Don't fool yourself. This is not a game, this is a  v e r y  serious struggle for freedom that will either dramatically change the course of the future or leave posterity cursing us for failing.

What counts as integration with mainstream banking?
I 100% think we need to be careful of falling for "their" tricks all over again, but is exchange integration to get fiat on ramps really that bad? I'm not sure.

I can see how bts shareholders could get used to the sweet juicy profits that banks could offer and get us hooked on "the system" and erode the principles bts was built on.
But I can also see that a lot of the services and products we want to provide require fiat > bitshares conversion.
Otherwise that means waiting for a world where crypto is every day so that people can transfer into bitshares with one step. But that would mean another crypto is already dominating and could be some years away.

If the majority of our target market are using a monetary system that is incompatible with ours then there will always be shareholders who want to take action to change that.
The only solution I can see is some degree of banking integration.
?
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Offline Method-X

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Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 06:22:09 PM »
The only solution I can see is some degree of banking integration.

 +5% Definitely. If you're in a river with a strong current and swim against it, you'll quickly get tired and drown. Instead, swim with the current until you become the current.

Offline starspirit

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Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 09:33:18 PM »
The only solution I can see is some degree of banking integration.

 +5% Definitely. If you're in a river with a strong current and swim against it, you'll quickly get tired and drown. Instead, swim with the current until you become the current.
Synergy yes. Integration, depends on future flexibility. Never dependence.

Offline Thom

Re: How might Bitcoin facilitate a better model for democracy?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 12:27:57 AM »
What counts as integration with mainstream banking?
I 100% think we need to be careful of falling for "their" tricks all over again, but is exchange integration to get fiat on ramps really that bad? I'm not sure.
?

Your response Permie was the only one that asked the right question, IMO, tho I articulated my perspectives and reservations quite well.

What constitutes integration with mainstream banking? ANSWER: anything that we build that helps it survive, that extends it's control over people.

OK, I know that is a very cold and rigid definition, but if we're truly focused on building an independent alternative financial system, if it truly is better, people would find a way to use it.

HOWEVER, that is an idealistic perspective that very few are willing to back. It just isn't working out that way (fast enough) as everyone here is eager to say.

Are we giving up on the goal? Few here seem to believe so. If we can't survive unless we build some bridges to appease the mainstream overlords and the masses who don't care about principles, does that compromise the foundational principles or not? Will it weaken us to the point we're just a faster, improved version "they" can control? I think that is one risk such an approach poses.

Nobody even addressed the point I made about mainstream's dominance of our ecosystem through regulation of the on ramps, and perhaps to a lesser degree the off ramps. How "decentralized" is our ecosystem if mainstream banksters have their hand on our money spiggot? It's like running a garden hose into a river and expecting the faucet is able to control the speed of the current.
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