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Offline bytemaster

200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document [Closed]
« on: December 28, 2013, 08:56:12 PM »

We are preparing to manage the entire development process via bounties with a goal of maximizing the rate and quality of development.   The result will be millions of dollars worth of bounties posted and managed by Invictus and the community.  For this process to be successful we must have clearly stated rules and procedures that give participants predictable outcomes.

I would like to come up with our official policy rule book that describes the best procedures for running this bounty campaign.  This rule book must be drafted in public, using a mergable file format (like HTML).  The look and feel of the rules and procedure document must by professional and of the highest quality.   The philosophy of this bounty campaign will be as follows:

1) Encourage Collaboration Competition rather than Cut-Throat Competition
2) Reward speed by offering advantage to 'first to market'
3) Prevent theft of work by building on others without their compensation
4) Unambiguous allocation and division of bounties (Invictus should not be responsible for judging divisions)
5) Handle rules for different types of deliverables (code, writing, graphics, videos, etc)
6) Encourage referrals of people to the bounties, people who refer winners get a cut
7) Perhaps a time window after submission during which competitors may make a submission
8) Encourage reinvestment back into the community
9) Encourage post-bounty support of products
10) Discourage submission of half-baked code with bugs and coding violations
11) Dispute resolution process
12) Process states PENDING, ACTIVE, EVALUATING, CLOSED
13) Bounties to help in the evaluation phase... ie: finding bugs, coding violations, security holes
14) Ways to organize team bounties where a 'project manager' can organize many others to help build a larger deliverable.
15) Bounties double as marketing / giveaways and thus should be priced to entice heavy competition and multiple bids rather than attempt to get a deal for minimal effort or expense. 
16) Have a commission system for the bounty operator/organizer.  The goal is to motivate rapid question/answer/evaluation cycles and divide up the task of running the bounty in addition to completing the bounty.
17) Voting systems are a big negative, we strongly prefer solutions that do not involve voting of any type.


The goal of the process is to make management of the bounty campaign efficient and effective with minimal room for conflict and ambiguity.   

This bounty is in the PENDING state until initial questions / concerns about the scope of the bounty are handled.  While in the PENDING state everything is subject to change.   

The value of this bounty (About $4000) is set to reflect the importance and urgency of getting the right set of rules as quickly as possible documented in a way that is easy to follow. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 08:19:44 PM by Stan »
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Offline phoenix

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 09:08:25 PM »
16) Have a commission system for the bounty operator/organizer.  The goal is to motivate rapid question/answer/evaluation cycles and divide up the task of running the bounty in addition to completing the bounty.

what do you mean by a commission system? How do you imagine it working?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 09:58:02 PM »

16) Have a commission system for the bounty operator/organizer.  The goal is to motivate rapid question/answer/evaluation cycles and divide up the task of running the bounty in addition to completing the bounty.

what do you mean by a commission system? How do you imagine it working?

Creating and managing bounties requires work on two sides.  Both sides should have incentive to settle the bounty as quickly as possible. 

We want to hire bounty managers that are paid by the number of successful bounties they can manage.







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Offline phoenix

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 10:16:13 PM »

16) Have a commission system for the bounty operator/organizer.  The goal is to motivate rapid question/answer/evaluation cycles and divide up the task of running the bounty in addition to completing the bounty.

what do you mean by a commission system? How do you imagine it working?

Creating and managing bounties requires work on two sides.  Both sides should have incentive to settle the bounty as quickly as possible. 

We want to hire bounty managers that are paid by the number of successful bounties they can manage.


So a bounty may be issued by one person, but managed by another. This manager should have an incentive to settle the bounty quickly. They should also be paid for managing multiple bounties. Is this correct?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 10:48:17 PM »
Right. In the normal use case I will define the high level bounty and judge final result but the manager will handle writing detailed bounty spec and day to day management. 

Manager gets paid only when I approve final result.   


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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2013, 11:13:57 PM »
We need this fast, it's getting complicated to sort out.
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Offline phoenix

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2013, 11:47:23 PM »
We need this fast, it's getting complicated to sort out.

I'm working on this now
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Offline que23

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 01:15:43 AM »
I was recently inspired by this: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/emergent-networks-and-falling-hierarchy/#.Ur9syGQW3M4 on emergent networks.

Response to 1) I think there will always be cut-throat competition. On this project for instance, let's say there are two teams working on the problem. Only one team can win. That means it's going to be a complete waste of time for the losing team. Perhaps someone should have the unfortunate job of discouraging teams that are on the wrong track and have a low chance of winning. This would minimize wasted time. If the team was really spirited though, they could pivot and move in a new direction.

(By the by, I'm putting together a team for this. I'm thinking a three person team to set the outline and work out details. The team members must be willing to do a group video or phone conference. Our team would then set smaller bounties for other community members to write specific parts of the manual. This should be a fast way to get the job done.)
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Offline luckybit

Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 03:25:04 AM »
I was recently inspired by this: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/emergent-networks-and-falling-hierarchy/#.Ur9syGQW3M4 on emergent networks.

Response to 1) I think there will always be cut-throat competition. On this project for instance, let's say there are two teams working on the problem. Only one team can win. That means it's going to be a complete waste of time for the losing team. Perhaps someone should have the unfortunate job of discouraging teams that are on the wrong track and have a low chance of winning. This would minimize wasted time. If the team was really spirited though, they could pivot and move in a new direction.

(By the by, I'm putting together a team for this. I'm thinking a three person team to set the outline and work out details. The team members must be willing to do a group video or phone conference. Our team would then set smaller bounties for other community members to write specific parts of the manual. This should be a fast way to get the job done.)
Study the work of John Nash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brkhuetnJmM (the Stag hunt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stzPcqmyhI4  . There does not always have to be cut throat competition. That only happens when cut throat competition is the easiest winning strategy and that winning strategy is promoted by the market.

So we should not reward cut throat competition and instead reward cooperative competition. We are all on the same team as part of the same community/economic ecosystem and certain cut throat activities damage our ecosystem. Cheating for example is not good for anyone who wants to make a living following the rules. Just like how botnets aren't good for any of us who mined following the rules. If someone were just out to win in the most cut throat fashion then creating botnets is more lucrative than being fair, stealing someone elses ideas is more lucrative than coming up with your own, and sabotaging someone else's work is more lucrative than competing on merit.

If you look at how governments operate, they are cut throat and never compete fairly with each other. If we are trying to build the ideal free market then we should do what we can to try to understand how game theory can be used to produce cooperative capitalism so that competition is used only to make the overall economic ecosystem stronger, more robust, etc.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 03:36:44 AM by luckybit »
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Offline que23

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 04:10:22 AM »
I was recently inspired by this: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/emergent-networks-and-falling-hierarchy/#.Ur9syGQW3M4 on emergent networks.

Response to 1) I think there will always be cut-throat competition. On this project for instance, let's say there are two teams working on the problem. Only one team can win. That means it's going to be a complete waste of time for the losing team. Perhaps someone should have the unfortunate job of discouraging teams that are on the wrong track and have a low chance of winning. This would minimize wasted time. If the team was really spirited though, they could pivot and move in a new direction.

(By the by, I'm putting together a team for this. I'm thinking a three person team to set the outline and work out details. The team members must be willing to do a group video or phone conference. Our team would then set smaller bounties for other community members to write specific parts of the manual. This should be a fast way to get the job done.)
Study the work of John Nash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brkhuetnJmM (the Stag hunt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stzPcqmyhI4  . There does not always have to be cut throat competition. That only happens when cut throat competition is the easiest winning strategy and that winning strategy is promoted by the market.

So we should not reward cut throat competition and instead reward cooperative competition. We are all on the same team as part of the same community/economic ecosystem and certain cut throat activities damage our ecosystem. Cheating for example is not good for anyone who wants to make a living following the rules. Just like how botnets aren't good for any of us who mined following the rules. If someone were just out to win in the most cut throat fashion then creating botnets is more lucrative than being fair, stealing someone elses ideas is more lucrative than coming up with your own, and sabotaging someone else's work is more lucrative than competing on merit.

If you look at how governments operate, they are cut throat and never compete fairly with each other. If we are trying to build the ideal free market then we should do what we can to try to understand how game theory can be used to produce cooperative capitalism so that competition is used only to make the overall economic ecosystem stronger, more robust, etc.

I watched the videos but I don't think they apply to my example of two teams, because the two teams are competing over one resource. Pepsi and Coke compete in a market, not for a single customer. The videos do apply to members of a team working to complete tasks. In that situation, some people can hunt stags and some people can catch hares, and we can all have something to eat.

Working on a bounty like this is risky. You always have the chance of being beaten by a lone genius who can produce things quickly.

I think there must be a principle that says every person or team working on a bounty must make their intentions public on the bounty thread before they start. So that way individuals and teams can decide how to proceed.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2013, 06:27:19 AM »
I was recently inspired by this: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/emergent-networks-and-falling-hierarchy/#.Ur9syGQW3M4 on emergent networks.

Response to 1) I think there will always be cut-throat competition. On this project for instance, let's say there are two teams working on the problem. Only one team can win. That means it's going to be a complete waste of time for the losing team. Perhaps someone should have the unfortunate job of discouraging teams that are on the wrong track and have a low chance of winning. This would minimize wasted time. If the team was really spirited though, they could pivot and move in a new direction.

(By the by, I'm putting together a team for this. I'm thinking a three person team to set the outline and work out details. The team members must be willing to do a group video or phone conference. Our team would then set smaller bounties for other community members to write specific parts of the manual. This should be a fast way to get the job done.)
Study the work of John Nash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brkhuetnJmM (the Stag hunt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stzPcqmyhI4  . There does not always have to be cut throat competition. That only happens when cut throat competition is the easiest winning strategy and that winning strategy is promoted by the market.

So we should not reward cut throat competition and instead reward cooperative competition. We are all on the same team as part of the same community/economic ecosystem and certain cut throat activities damage our ecosystem. Cheating for example is not good for anyone who wants to make a living following the rules. Just like how botnets aren't good for any of us who mined following the rules. If someone were just out to win in the most cut throat fashion then creating botnets is more lucrative than being fair, stealing someone elses ideas is more lucrative than coming up with your own, and sabotaging someone else's work is more lucrative than competing on merit.

If you look at how governments operate, they are cut throat and never compete fairly with each other. If we are trying to build the ideal free market then we should do what we can to try to understand how game theory can be used to produce cooperative capitalism so that competition is used only to make the overall economic ecosystem stronger, more robust, etc.

I watched the videos but I don't think they apply to my example of two teams, because the two teams are competing over one resource. Pepsi and Coke compete in a market, not for a single customer. The videos do apply to members of a team working to complete tasks. In that situation, some people can hunt stags and some people can catch hares, and we can all have something to eat.

Working on a bounty like this is risky. You always have the chance of being beaten by a lone genius who can produce things quickly.

I think there must be a principle that says every person or team working on a bounty must make their intentions public on the bounty thread before they start. So that way individuals and teams can decide how to proceed.

My policy is that all work must be done publicly in github (or forums) and announced.  If someone wishes to copy your initial progress and fork something or steal a method they should negotiate with the creator because without permission from all contributors to a solution the bounty will not be paid.  This protects everyone and encourages people to 'license' their work to as many teams as possible to maximize their chance of getting paid. 

I also suggested a policy that submarine submissions do not get this benefit and other teams can copy their efforts when the do surprise everyone.   Bottom line, bounties are there to motivate cooperation and division of labor and not to have backstabbing secret silo development.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2013, 07:56:48 AM »
I have posted a draft version of Bounty Rules to hold things over until a more complete document is produced by this bounty.  See the sticky post in Bountiful Bounties board.  The ideas expressed in the draft should be incorporated into the final bounty rules document.
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2013, 09:13:38 AM »
I would like to provide an idea to enhance the process of make decision of final bounty amount.

1. 3I post a Bounty Requirement with several optional bounty amoumts. e.g 100 PTS, 200 PTS, 400 PTS

2. Forum users join, and voting for that, which they think should be the approximate price for the task. The bounty with most user support would be the final bounty given to someone complete the task.

3. Maybe, even voting for the final effect of the result of task, give 90%, 100%, 110%.

This could be just a small improvement, but can attract the community to join and contribute in some degree.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 09:27:55 AM by HackFisher »
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Offline boshen1011

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 09:16:20 AM »
1+

Offline phoenix

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Re: 200 PTS - Bounty Rules and Procedures Document
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2013, 11:07:26 PM »
I would like to provide an idea to enhance the process of make decision of final bounty amount.

1. 3I post a Bounty Requirement with several optional bounty amoumts. e.g 100 PTS, 200 PTS, 400 PTS

2. Forum users join, and voting for that, which they think should be the approximate price for the task. The bounty with most user support would be the final bounty given to someone complete the task.

3. Maybe, even voting for the final effect of the result of task, give 90%, 100%, 110%.

This could be just a small improvement, but can attract the community to join and contribute in some degree.

I believe 3I wants to avoid any voting systems in the bounties to prevent fraud. However, they do want to include bidding for the right to enter for a bounty, which will allow the bounty to be lowered to the true market value.
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