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Offline kyletorpey

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Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« on: December 28, 2013, 10:05:48 PM »

Wouldn't it be better to have people converting bitcoins directly to BitUSD, BitGold, BitEuro, etc. rather than having Bitshares as the middle man? I also don't mean anything like what Mastercoin is doing, as I think they should also be building all of their features directly on top of Bitcoin. I know that some people say the reason that the middleman is needed is to give people an incentive to build the project in the first place, but don't people who already own bitcoins benefit from new features built on top of Bitcoin?

Offline seraphim

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 10:58:04 PM »
Bitcoin's been the first, but by far not the best innovation. For example, currently 75% of hash power is controlled by only a few people/organizations (big server farms). I am happy that the development of bitshares brings a lot of ideas for the whole crypto world.
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Offline kyletorpey

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Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 11:10:26 PM »
Bitcoin's been the first, but by far not the best innovation. For example, currently 75% of hash power is controlled by only a few people/organizations (big server farms). I am happy that the development of bitshares brings a lot of ideas for the whole crypto world.

This doesn't really answer my question. The point is that the price of Bitshares will float in price. People won't be able to convert bitcoins to BitUSD, they will have to convert into Bitshares first. It would be better if they didn't have to deal with the volatility of Bitshares along the way. Unless I am mistaken in how all of this works.

Offline seraphim

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 11:19:35 PM »
Price of BTC is volatile already, so that's no reason to build on top of it.
You don't know what happens in the future, maybe BTC will be replaced by something advanced.
By using an own blockchain we're on the safe side and not dependent on the fate of BTC.

To address your other point - why should people holding BTC but not supporting further development benefit from it?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 11:21:06 PM by seraphim »
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Offline kyletorpey

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Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 11:29:07 PM »
Price of BTC is volatile already, so that's no reason to build on top of it.
You don't know what happens in the future, maybe BTC will be replaced by something advanced.
By using an own blockchain we're on the safe side and not dependent on the fate of BTC.

To address your other point - why should people holding BTC but not supporting further development benefit from it?

BTC is volatile, but it will be less volatile than BitShares because BTC has more liquidity. It's true that Bitcoin could fail, but BitShares could then be moved to be on top of the new popular crypto coin.

I suppose bitcoin holders would benefit from BitShares if Open Transactions and Colored Coins did not exist. I think the fact that you can go directly from BTC to USD or Gold or whatever else is an advantage over BitShares and Mastercoin.

Offline Stan

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Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 12:35:56 AM »
Price of BTC is volatile already, so that's no reason to build on top of it.
You don't know what happens in the future, maybe BTC will be replaced by something advanced.
By using an own blockchain we're on the safe side and not dependent on the fate of BTC.

To address your other point - why should people holding BTC but not supporting further development benefit from it?

BTC is volatile, but it will be less volatile than BitShares because BTC has more liquidity. It's true that Bitcoin could fail, but BitShares could then be moved to be on top of the new popular crypto coin.

I suppose bitcoin holders would benefit from BitShares if Open Transactions and Colored Coins did not exist. I think the fact that you can go directly from BTC to USD or Gold or whatever else is an advantage over BitShares and Mastercoin.

Bitcoin is mined and getting dangerously centralized because of it.
BitShares will not need mining and be much more profitable and decentralized because of it.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 07:14:29 AM »
Bitcoin's been the first, but by far not the best innovation. For example, currently 75% of hash power is controlled by only a few people/organizations (big server farms). I am happy that the development of bitshares brings a lot of ideas for the whole crypto world.

And this is the problem. People say Satoshi was a genius and he was, but he's not the end of and he's not the only. We should be pushing the innovation rather than looking at Bitcoin.

Win or lose, you have to try to improve on whatever already exists.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 07:21:10 AM »
Let me boil it down to a few simple facts....

1) The volatility of BitShares is irrelevant because those that want stability use BitAssets instead.
2) Multiple blockchains are necessary for scalability (exchanges have higher transaction volume)
3) Mining is wasteful
4) We can build more profitable DACs, Bitcoin has a 12% wealth tax and 0 returns.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline kyletorpey

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Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 07:29:13 PM »

Bitcoin is mined and getting dangerously centralized because of it.
BitShares will not need mining and be much more profitable and decentralized because of it.

So BitShares will be Proof of Stake?

And this is the problem. People say Satoshi was a genius and he was, but he's not the end of and he's not the only. We should be pushing the innovation rather than looking at Bitcoin.

Win or lose, you have to try to improve on whatever already exists.

I agree improvements on Bitcoin are possible, but I haven't seen any yet. Perhaps I need to take a second look at Proof of Stake.

Let me boil it down to a few simple facts....

1) The volatility of BitShares is irrelevant because those that want stability use BitAssets instead.
2) Multiple blockchains are necessary for scalability (exchanges have higher transaction volume)
3) Mining is wasteful
4) We can build more profitable DACs, Bitcoin has a 12% wealth tax and 0 returns.

1. Thank you for pointing this out to me. This was my original question. So if I want to use the BitShares exchange, I don't need to buy BitShares? I'll be able to load bitcoins into the client and trade them directly for BitGold, BitUSD, etc? So I guess the only function of BitShares is to pay dividends to the people who hold them? The users of the decentralized exchange don't need to use them at all?

2. I know Bitcoin can currenly only handle something like seven transactions per second, but I thought this was one of the main things being worked on by Bitcoin developers.

3. If Proof of Stake turns out to be viable, then yes. I suppose I need to take a second look at it.

4. I'm not sure what you mean by the 12% wealth tax.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 07:40:30 PM »
Bitcoin reallocates wealth from current holders to miners through 12% inflation.


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For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2013, 07:41:38 PM »
Ripple consensus combined with pos is what we are going for.


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For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Why isn't Bitshares Being Built Directly on Top of Bitcoin?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2013, 07:42:46 PM »
Bitcoin is no different than usd from the perspective of bitshares.


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For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

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