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Offline cob

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militia DAC
« on: January 03, 2014, 04:37:32 AM »

OK. I apologize in advance for most likely attrracting the NSA and DHS to this community with this thread.

I was reading an article about memorycoin abouthow it's a DAC that actually hires employees and pays them a salary. The can even be fired if the shareholders dislike their performance (lol @ unions).
I thought that was amazing.
I read bytemaster mention an idea of having a decentralized ISP with satellites and for profit mesh nodes. I was thinking to myself "wow we would be one hell of a civilization once communication, the media, and the world of finance is in the hands of the individual. Make the state obsolete."

But they i thought.... Oh wait, they have guns, air to space missiles, etc. We can bypass and outsmart them in the digitalworld no problem. But when it comes to the physical world, they can blow our ISP sats right out of the sky!

And yes i am aware that crypto currencies can starve off the state's funding on the long term. But for the sake of the idea, let's say they stay funded, well funded and armed to the teeth.

I thought of a Dencetralized Autonomous Army.

Imagine a DAC that hires people to be it's soldiers. They recieve funds at their public key/address. They recieve 3D printer files through something like bitmessage and download em à la bitorrent. Files for weapons and body armour etc.

The army (DAA) shareholders would be the ones calling the shots. Either with voting and or by hiring a general (like memorycoin does). If that general is a tyrant, well in a decentralized impossible to stop vote, bang! Funds stop flowing to this address and that address/id/generalcan't give out orders anymore. The replacement general has immediate control of the DAA.

If the state doesn't just shrivel up and die and actually starts to imprison us. If the start blowing up our ISP hardware. We'll need some physical defense.

I assume a DAA would be everywhere, super well funded, super efficient and incorruptible.
Imagine not knowing if your neighbor is a fellow soldier or not. Some would be open about it (i assume some would want actual training!) but some might be annonymous. The get the salary for "reserve troop", printed their equipment from home and get sall the updates through encryption.

Militia DAC sounds crazy i know. But i think it would be physically possible in the futue no?

We know there would be TONS of people interested in it. The occupy movement for example, military people that sign up to the US marines with good intentions i'm gonna purtekt freedom!" Only later realizing you've nbeen a peon in a huge chess game.

Anyway what do you all think?

Could it work? A defense DAC?
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Offline phoenix

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Re: militia DAC
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 05:58:29 PM »
How do you prevent individual soldiers from going rouge? How do you make sure that the general is held accountable, without the government being able to know his soldiers movements? On the one hand, this sounds ridiculous, on the other hand, if somebody worked out the technical aspect of it, it just might work
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Offline bytemaster

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 06:31:52 PM »
How do you prevent individual soldiers from going rouge? How do you make sure that the general is held accountable, without the government being able to know his soldiers movements? On the one hand, this sounds ridiculous, on the other hand, if somebody worked out the technical aspect of it, it just might work

This is the same consciousness that leads to centralization and is what we are fighting against.   That said, DACs need to focus on results and not the means.  This means that a DAC that created a prediction market on how many days someone has left to live would accomplish the same goal while also serving as a kind of life-insurance DAC.   Such a DAC would of course be used to justify shutting down the entire industry.

Far better to have organized shunning of those in power, cut them off from markets.  Long before we have satellites in the air powered by DACs the nation state will be much smaller than it is today.
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Offline arcke

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Re: militia DAC
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 08:01:20 PM »
A prediction market on life expectancy is not quite the same as what a militia would do. A militia could partially serve to protect a community or some private assets. How is this accomplished by a prediction market?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:14:37 PM by arcke »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 08:49:44 PM »
A dead pool or a prediction market on life expectancy is not quite the same as what a militia would do. A militia could partially serve to protect a community or some private assets. How is this accomplished by a dead pool?

I would like to remove this thread from the forum as it promotes aggression, the opposite of what a DAC should do.  Lets find non-violent ways of resolving these issues.
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Offline toast

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2014, 08:52:28 PM »
^^ Agreed, I question the premise that a military or militia would be necessary if DACs become the way the world operates.
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Offline toast

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2014, 08:53:59 PM »
I think you should add a forum rule like "No posts promoting aggression, use of force, or violence" or something
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Offline arcke

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Re: militia DAC
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2014, 08:58:40 PM »
I think we should be clear about what we want. The discussion of prediction markets is very interesting and our technology is enabling others to build products which can do this. I am all about free speech. Nobody is being aggressive towards anybody. I hope we are all agreeing to be responsible to discuss these issues.
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Offline cob

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Re: militia DAC
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 05:40:41 PM »
I have no problem having this removed.

As a hardcore NAPer my goal was to brainstorm defense against aggressors, not aggression.

I wanted to see how it could be done.

Does anyone have ideas regarding a defense DAC?
Like a police DAC.
A "don't rape me, beat me or home invade me" DAC.

I'm looking for brainstormers here!
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 06:34:38 PM »
Yes, I do... but it looks like my website is currently down due to Keyhotee downloads... will post more info when server recovers.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline cob

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Re: militia DAC
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 04:10:44 PM »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2014, 06:14:41 PM »
^^ Agreed, I question the premise that a military or militia would be necessary if DACs become the way the world operates.

While I disagree with his ideas and take an anti-violent stance I also take an anti-censorship stance. There should be a portion of the forum properly tagged for this kind of talk. This primarily because we know at some point these sorts of ideas are going to be discussed.

My opinion on it is that while the government isn't good at many things, when it comes to defense and war the government is the best at that particular business.

----------

I think what you're thinking of is a cyber militia. You're thinking about it in the context of a cyber war. I'm sure the three letter agencies around the world already have plans in place for that.

As far as law enforcement goes, that is not something which can be decentralized anytime soon. Checks and balances are necessary to prevent abuse. How would you prevent these tools from being misused to abuse innocent people without checks and balances?

For that reason I take on an anti-violence stance. There are no current checks and balances in the world where we already know who is in charge and there would similarly be no checks and balances when we don't know who is in charge.

Violence doesn't really benefit the people who want to live a long life or who want freedom in most cases. Perhaps there should be a clause put into the social contract which stipulates that all DACs which adhere to the social consensus will not promote or make use of physical violence, force, or coercion? Because in my opinion opening the door to violence would invite it right back.
I have no problem having this removed.

As a hardcore NAPer my goal was to brainstorm defense against aggressors, not aggression.

I wanted to see how it could be done.

Does anyone have ideas regarding a defense DAC?
Like a police DAC.
A "don't rape me, beat me or home invade me" DAC.

I'm looking for brainstormers here!
If your goal really is defense against aggressors the best defense against aggressors is evidence provided by sousveillance. Secrecy allows aggressors to get away with abusing innocent people, break laws, and more. Surveillance is a tool of hierarchy to protect those at the top from those at the bottom while souseveillance is a tool of heterarchy to protect those at the bottom "the little guy" from those at the top.

The Rodney King beating was filmed and police brutally was caught on tape. That was sousveillance. The ability to pseudo-anonymously exchange information means that evidence of corruption or of a crime can captured and distributed. The same laws which are used to enforce on the little guy can take down the big guy if the right law enforcement agent receives the evidence.

I think if information flows freely, it will become more difficult for those with power and authority to abuse that power and authority. Violence isn't really necessary to get a person fired or arrested for a crime, if in fact a crime has been committed. A jury is the only way to evaluate the evidence to determine if that was the case, and the evidence has to be collected by detectives and people trained to make those kinds of cases.

http://reason.com/archives/2013/11/18/sousveillance-turns-the-tables-on-the-su
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 06:48:09 PM by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 11:07:42 PM »
My whole plan for this has been outlined here:

https://the-iland.net/default/index

Key components are:
1) Nonviolent / Voluntarist Society at all times
2) Injustice Insurance
3) Identity System (Keyhotee ID) backed by solid reputation system.
4) Coordinated Shunning motivated by the above.

There is a lot to read there, but it captures my ideas on the subject.   More to do once BitShares is complete :)
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 06:48:18 AM »
My whole plan for this has been outlined here:

https://the-iland.net/default/index

Key components are:
1) Nonviolent / Voluntarist Society at all times
2) Injustice Insurance
3) Identity System (Keyhotee ID) backed by solid reputation system.
4) Coordinated Shunning motivated by the above.

There is a lot to read there, but it captures my ideas on the subject.   More to do once BitShares is complete :)

Injustice Sharing Fund

I like the idea but just like with health insurance it's hard to pull off pseudo anonymously because of the scamming and false accusations. Maybe some members of the community with have different reputations than others and with the badge system idea I proposed a while ago if there are law enforcement members of the community they could wear a badge to signify their association with law enforcement pseudo anonymously.

That could allow a person who is a victim of injustice to go to the right people for help.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: militia DAC
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 07:16:48 AM »
My whole plan for this has been outlined here:

https://the-iland.net/default/index

Key components are:
1) Nonviolent / Voluntarist Society at all times
2) Injustice Insurance
3) Identity System (Keyhotee ID) backed by solid reputation system.
4) Coordinated Shunning motivated by the above.

There is a lot to read there, but it captures my ideas on the subject.   More to do once BitShares is complete :)

Injustice Sharing Fund

I like the idea but just like with health insurance it's hard to pull off pseudo anonymously because of the scamming and false accusations. Maybe some members of the community with have different reputations than others and with the badge system idea I proposed a while ago if there are law enforcement members of the community they could wear a badge to signify their association with law enforcement pseudo anonymously.

That could allow a person who is a victim of injustice to go to the right people for help.

None of this would be based upon being anonymous.  Justice depends upon being known and having a reputation.  The key is to set up the fund such that no laws are broken.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

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