Smart Coins & Forced Settlement

[clayop]

It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant.
I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)

I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.

You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.

Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?

[Bhuz]

You are not exploiting transwiser, you are exploiting a flaw in the feed at the expenses of shorters, included transwiser.

[Bhuz]

JonnyBitcoin, you proved again that you wont even try to listen, if you would red my post you surely wouldn't reply as you just did. Or maybe is only due to the fact that you are very sorry and angry because you can not exploit the current cny market.

[alt]

@clayop
It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant.
I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)

I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.

so naive just like a baby

[JonnyB]

Are you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.

you're not explaining yourself clearly

You didn't answer my question. Tell me when bitCNY has premium than CNY. It's price feed in terms of CNY/BTS is always lower (e.g. 0.0203) than exchanged price (0.0207). Compare USD/BTS depth chart and CNY/BTS chart. You'll find the difference.

Yes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNY

There was some emergency, because someone (you may know who he is) was enjoying (for example, settled 4,200 CNY) free money with the wrong price feed. And you didn't pay 1 million BTS until your order is filled.

No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY
the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.[/color]

Again, with this small difference, someone was exploiting the system.

Who's the someone? Can you answer?

@clayop
It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant.
I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)

I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.

[alt]

1. as a bitCNY holder, I think price floor means the minimal BTS I can buy with my bitCNY, it's BTS/CNY
so if you want to price it with CNY/BTS, it should be called price ceiling
so the settlement price should greater than real price we got from the exchange?

2. you have set a volume limit, I think of course you want to protect some attack.
but I think this volume limit is still too weak.
may I ask you, do you belive current 0.02CNY/BTS is the real price of BTS? do you belive there are no manipulate?
I think the price is totally unbeliveable, it's because of manipulate of couse.
what I have seen is the whals can manipulate the price so easy, and keep the period so long.
so I don't think the  volume protect is enough.
and if somebody ask force settlement my short position at this price, I can never accept it. so my choise is I'll never short more bitasset.
we are lucky the whals don't read the whitepater carefully, if he know, he can force settlement all short position at such a long time.

I want to ask all the BTS holders, do you accepet the deal? whals buy out all your BTS at such a price, 0.02CNY/BTS
if the answer is no, never short, or this can happend very possible.

@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset

When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices.  So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD.  I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.

Few understand the whole system.  Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it.   We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time.

[clayop]

Are you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.

you're not explaining yourself clearly

You didn't answer my question. Tell me when bitCNY has premium than CNY. It's price feed in terms of CNY/BTS is always lower (e.g. 0.0203) than exchanged price (0.0207). Compare USD/BTS depth chart and CNY/BTS chart. You'll find the difference.

Yes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNY

There was some emergency, because someone (you may know who he is) was enjoying (for example, settled 4,200 CNY) free money with the wrong price feed. And you didn't pay 1 million BTS until your order is filled.

No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY
the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.[/color]

Again, with this small difference, someone was exploiting the system.

Who's the someone? Can you answer?

[JonnyB]

@JonnyBitcoin
The really bad thing here is that You don't even try to listen and understand what we are saing.
You can continue in believe what you said replying to clayop, but it is just false.

-The price feed for CNY is lower than what it should be because the current script does not include some big chinese exchanges

-The committee has not changed any fundamental design of the system. The committee has temporary disabled a function that was used to exploit a situation in CNY market, caused by the inaccurate feed.
(function that probably more than 99.9% of the community never used before the gui introduction, yourself included I bet, so don't scream to the scandal if is not available for 1 week after months of being out of normal use)

-We need people that instead of insult and complain all the time, step up and put theirself on the table. Make a committee account and propose theirself for help the whole community and the current committee.

The change actually stopped the CLI client from doing a force settle because it was a fee change not a ui change.
I step up to the table by warning others users about the ramifications of a single vote from an ill advised committee.
The only thing we have that makes us special and different to ripple and others is smartcoins because of their floor peg to fiat, the committee removed that only USP we have even if it was just temporarily. 

[JonnyB]

the price feed is lower because CNY is cheaper than BitCNY

Are you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY.

you're not explaining yourself clearly

the committee should never have done this as it changes the fundamental design of smartcoins and their purpose

Did the committee change the fundamental design? It's just a temporarily suspension. Why do you cannot wait for days? Did this decision give damages to you?

Yes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNY

No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY

I agree. So price difference between price feed and exchanged price should be smaller that the conversion fee. But with the wrong price feed, they have to charge more than 3%, and it will significantly decrease demands. If the feed is fixed, they can charge smaller amount of fee.

the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.

No clayop we do not need that. What we need is for people to elect someone to the committee who can replace you.
Someone who understands finance better than you do.

I encourage you to apply committee member instead of blaming others.

Maybe I will one day, but for now I will voice my opinion if I find a representative like yourself being reckless.

My proxy vote goes to @Xeldal at the moment

[bytemaster]

@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset

When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices.  So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD.  I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.

Few understand the whole system.  Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it.   We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time. 

[alt]

thanks for the explain.
may I ask you some questions?
and I wonder except you how many other people who have discussed with you and understand the whole system can  answer it.

4. The presence of "forced settlement" is meant to maintain correlation to outside prices, not to set the price.  The actual price should be higher than the forced settlement price, hence the feed becomes a price FLOOR.  In general there should always be money to be made by offering to buy BitCNY with more BTS than you could get with forced settlement and then turning around and selling that BitCNY for even more BTS.  New BitCNY only enters the market when the price of BitCNY gets high enough to cover all of the liquidity risks.  In principle, someone who is short BitCNY and gets force settled is getting a HUGE deal.  They are effectively covering at the lowest possible premium (0), but unfortunately in exchange for getting the lowest possible premium, they do not get to choose the best possible time to exit their position. 

when you say price, it's CNY/BTS or BTS/CNY?

5. There is a daily limit on the percent of BitCNY supply that can be force settled.  Thus only the bottom X% of collateral holders are subject to risk.

what's the default %X?
is this parameter independence for each asset?

[Bhuz]

@JonnyBitcoin
The really bad thing here is that You don't even try to listen and understand what we are saing.
You can continue in believe what you said replying to clayop, but it is just false.

-The price feed for CNY is lower than what it should be because the current script does not include some big chinese exchanges

-The committee has not changed any fundamental design of the system. The committee has temporary disabled a function that was used to exploit a situation in CNY market, caused by the inaccurate feed.
(function that probably more than 99.9% of the community never used before the gui introduction, yourself included I bet, so don't scream to the scandal if is not available for 1 week after months of being out of normal use)

-We need people that instead of insult and complain all the time, step up and put theirself on the table. Make a committee account and propose theirself for help the whole community and the current committee.

[clayop]

the price feed is lower because CNY is cheaper than BitCNY

Are you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS.

the committee should never have done this as it changes the fundamental design of smartcoins and their purpose

Did the committee change the fundamental design? It's just a temporarily suspension. Why do you cannot wait for days? Did this decision give damages to you?

No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY

I agree. So price difference between price feed and exchanged price should be smaller that the conversion fee. But with the wrong price feed, they have to charge more than 3%, and it will significantly decrease demands. If the feed is fixed, they can charge smaller amount of fee.

No clayop we do not need that. What we need is for people to elect someone to the committee who can replace you.
Someone who understands finance better than you do.

I encourage you to apply committee member instead of blaming others.

[fav]

may be a good time to check out some free and transparent proxies https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/board,104.0.html

[JonnyB]

So it was a problem with the price feed and not forced stllement?

There are two separate problems. One is obvious- price feed is lower than the exchanged price so bad actors can exploit gateway effectively. To prevent this, the committee suspended force settlement with emergency.
Another is quite debatable. The question maybe that "is force settlement a unfair disadvantage for shorters?", "Can transwise sustain with force settlement?". To resolve these questions, we need more cooperation and discussion I think.

@clayop  You really don't understand do you?

There are two separate problems. One is obvious- price feed is lower than the exchanged price so bad actors can exploit gateway effectively.

the price feed is lower because CNY is cheaper than BitCNY

To prevent this, the committee suspended force settlement with emergency.

the committee should never have done this as it changes the fundamental design of smartcoins and their purpose

Another is quite debatable. The question maybe that "is force settlement a unfair disadvantage for shorters?", "Can transwise sustain with force settlement?"

No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY

To resolve these questions, we need more cooperation and discussion I think.

No clayop we do not need that. What we need is for people to elect someone to the committee who can replace you.
Someone who understands finance better than you do.