Author Topic: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club  (Read 1545 times)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« on: December 15, 2015, 12:21:36 pm »
A one year time locked BitUSD savings club

This is a club where you are essentially gambling that you will not need access to your funds for an entire year and won't die/be detained/forget or lose your private keys and that enough others will, so that it generates meaningful interest.

- You can claim early but then you pay a 20% penalty fee.
-  In the final month you must perform a 'proof of life' account action or your deposit and interest will be forfeited.

 People who are forced to access their funds early, People who die/are detained/forget/lose private keys will pay penalty fees which will fund the returns for others.

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.

Obviously the numbers can be tweaked and I have no idea how many will claim early/not claim.

It seems this could all be coded in a smart contract.

Once the bond market is in place the fund can be directed towards that and earn additional rewards.

This will take BTS off the market and increase the CAP of BitUSD.

Thoughts?

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Offline Samupaha

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 02:04:19 pm »
Great idea, I'm in! Not exactly gambling but enough gambling-like so that people seeking risk and profits might really use this.

This could be done so that every month starts a new "batch" where people can put their money. This should be done also with BitCNY and BitEUR.

Offline abit

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 03:10:30 pm »

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.


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Offline puppies

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 03:26:47 pm »

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.


Murder is motivated..  ???

Lol.  As is reporting others to the authorities, or infecting them with viruses so they lose their private keys.
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 03:30:22 pm »
So where is the interest for this coming from?
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Offline Thom

Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 03:34:32 pm »

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.


Murder is motivated..  ???

In contrast, it motivates STEALTH to circumvent the murder motive!
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 03:35:10 pm »

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.


Murder is motivated..  ???

 :D

1. In a large pool of funds, the impact any one individual has is likely to be small.
2. If one person was known to hold a large amount of crypto, they're more susceptible to blackmail/kidnapping.
3. BTS will have STEALTH

Imagine a $10 million fund and you knew someone had $250 000 in it.
If you murdered him that would only generate $250 for every $10 000 you personally held in the fund.


Great idea, I'm in! Not exactly gambling but enough gambling-like so that people seeking risk and profits might really use this.

This could be done so that every month starts a new "batch" where people can put their money. This should be done also with BitCNY and BitEUR.

 +5%, I would also consider BitGold too.

So where is the interest for this coming from?

1. Traditional fixed term deposits usually have high penalty fees for early withdrawals.
A percentage of savers will due to unforeseen reasons or better investment opportunities need to remove their funds early, the penalty fees they incur for this are given to the savers who keep their funds in till maturity. So this will generate some interest/rewards.

2. There is also as mentioned the suggesting of doing some 'proof of life' at maturity. People who fail to do this will either forfeit/pay a penalty and these will be distributed to everyone else. Again generating interest/rewards.

3. If the bond market is in place. The fund could perhaps also be put on the market and generate some interest/rewards there.

It seems harsh to pay a penalty if you forget/lose your private key/are detained/die but people would be entering into this voluntarily.
In the case of death or losing your private keys, your funds would most likely be lost anyway.

(Ideally this would all be coded, so no-one has access to the funds, it would all be handled by blockchain code.)

« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 03:51:16 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline Samupaha

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 05:00:51 pm »
It seems harsh to pay a penalty if you forget/lose your private key/are detained/die but people would be entering into this voluntarily.
In the case of death or losing your private keys, your funds would most likely be lost anyway.

(Ideally this would all be coded, so no-one has access to the funds, it would all be handled by blockchain code.)

I wouldn't call it "harsh penalty". It is the risk here and it is clearly defined. It is the gambling part of the fund.

Of course this should be a full smart contract so that there is no need to any human interaction. It propably needs a hardfork or do we have tools already to make this happen? If this needs a hardfork, we could also do a fee backed asset! A part of the revenue would go to the FBA owners.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 05:23:09 pm »
A one year time locked BitUSD savings club

This is a club where you are essentially gambling that you will not need access to your funds for an entire year and won't die/be detained/forget or lose your private keys and that enough others will, so that it generates meaningful interest.

- You can claim early but then you pay a 20% penalty fee.
-  In the final month you must perform a 'proof of life' account action or your deposit and interest will be forfeited.

 People who are forced to access their funds early, People who die/are detained/forget/lose private keys will pay penalty fees which will fund the returns for others.

Eg. if 10% claim early and 10% don't perform a 'proof of life' action during the claim month, that will generate 15% Per Annum.

Obviously the numbers can be tweaked and I have no idea how many will claim early/not claim.

It seems this could all be coded in a smart contract.

Once the bond market is in place the fund can be directed towards that and earn additional rewards.

This will take BTS off the market and increase the CAP of BitUSD.

Thoughts?

Hm.....

Damn empirical this is an interesting idea. 
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Offline yvv

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 05:50:02 pm »
I am not impressed by this particular proposal, but having a way to return money from orphan accounts would be actually good thing for the network. This could be done by setting inactivity fee or demurrage. Accounts which did not submit any transactions for, say, one year would pay a small fee. BTS fee would go to reserve pool, asset fees would be returned to asset issuers. If account is abandoned, it would continue to pay for inactivity until its balance goes to 0.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 06:20:03 pm »
I am not impressed by this particular proposal, but having a way to return money from orphan accounts would be actually good thing for the network. This could be done by setting inactivity fee or demurrage. Accounts which did not submit any transactions for, say, one year would pay a small fee. BTS fee would go to reserve pool, asset fees would be returned to asset issuers. If account is abandoned, it would continue to pay for inactivity until its balance goes to 0.

What you are describing was a feature of the original BTSX whitepaper. (5% annual inactivity fee).
With the presence of dilution any further fees for standard accounts would likely be untenable.

A possible option is to completely remove dilution and commit to being a no inflation crypto-currency again with the expectation that basic development can be paid for via fees, and blockchain additions & marketing can be funded via FBA's & the referral programme. In which case the inactivity fee could be re-introduced (& possibly make more BTS/valuable BTS available than is currently accessed via dilution.)

However as I said at the time, adding dilution was a Pandora's box, once precedent is set, it's hard to undo, so there's no guarantee BTS would regain crypto-currency status and value as well as being a kick ass DAC by relinquishing the flexibility dilution provides.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:21:41 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline mike623317

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 06:26:36 pm »
I like the idea, but we should have one for gold too. Personally, I view the USD as toxic and don't want to hold it at all, let alone for a year.

M

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 06:30:17 pm »
I like the idea, but we should have one for gold too. Personally, I view the USD as toxic and don't want to hold it at all, let alone for a year.

M

 +5% Yeah, I'd like a Gold one too.


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Offline yvv

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 06:53:44 pm »

What you are describing was a feature of the original BTSX whitepaper. (5% annual inactivity fee).
With the presence of dilution any further fees for standard accounts would likely be untenable.

A possible option is to completely remove dilution and commit to being a no inflation crypto-currency again with the expectation that basic development can be paid for via fees, and blockchain additions & marketing can be funded via FBA's & the referral programme. In which case the inactivity fee could be re-introduced (& possibly make more BTS/valuable BTS available than is currently accessed via dilution.)

However as I said at the time, adding dilution was a Pandora's box, once precedent is set, it's hard to undo, so there's no guarantee BTS would regain crypto-currency status and value as well as being a kick ass DAC by relinquishing the flexibility dilution provides.

So was the inactivity fee implemented in BTSX or was it just in white paper? Something like 5% annual, 100 BTS minimum sounds reasonable. Let asset creators decide the amount for each asset.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Fixed Term BitUSD Savings Club
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 06:58:09 pm »

What you are describing was a feature of the original BTSX whitepaper. (5% annual inactivity fee).
With the presence of dilution any further fees for standard accounts would likely be untenable.

A possible option is to completely remove dilution and commit to being a no inflation crypto-currency again with the expectation that basic development can be paid for via fees, and blockchain additions & marketing can be funded via FBA's & the referral programme. In which case the inactivity fee could be re-introduced (& possibly make more BTS/valuable BTS available than is currently accessed via dilution.)

However as I said at the time, adding dilution was a Pandora's box, once precedent is set, it's hard to undo, so there's no guarantee BTS would regain crypto-currency status and value as well as being a kick ass DAC by relinquishing the flexibility dilution provides.

So was the inactivity fee implemented in BTSX or was it just in white paper? Something like 5% annual, 100 BTS minimum sounds reasonable. Let asset creators decide the amount for each asset.

Proposed but never implemented.

I did run a poll for implementing the inactivity fee at least for stake that was never claimed as an alternative to implementing dilution and there was some support for that.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,9950.0.html
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:59:59 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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