Poll

Should Angelshares be invested in this mission?

Yes!
21 (60%)
No! (Please tell why)
14 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Voting closed: January 18, 2014, 10:06:52 AM

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Offline domsch

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Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« on: January 11, 2014, 10:06:52 AM »

Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform

After discussing the matter with Dan, we agreed that it would be the best to bring my proposal to the community and gain support for our mission.

I want to create the first international, legal and automatic DAC Trading Platform. Not only would it guarantee an easy entry to DAC’s through Fiat, it would also allow trading to be conducted with different DAC’s.



What will we exactly do?


There are several things we will work on, but our primary focus will be to create an international and legal trading platform. That means we will work on acquiring all the required licenses (either through partnerships with other companies, or by buying the licenses). There are 3 major licenses we need to acquire in order to function as a legitimate exchange:
  • MTB License (Money Transmitting Business. This is a license which we need to acquire in all 50 states)
  • MSB License (Money Service Business. This is a federal license)
  • PSP (Payment Service Provider. Registered in the EU)
  • And other licenses to assure our legality in all the major countries

As mentioned, initially we will acquire these licenses through strategic partnerships with current license-holders. Directly applying to these licenses is out of question right now as we do not meet the current requirements (e.g. $7m in bonds, having a CCO, etc.). But we are definitely looking to get these licenses in our hand as soon as possible.


Secondly, we will work on a secure web wallet not only for Protoshares and Bitshares, but also for all the other future DAC’s that Invictus and other developers have planned. Since most of us are paranoid about hackers, we will combine some of the best techniques available right now to offer our users the best possible security for their money. This includes:
  • 2FA (standard)
  • Multi-Signature Wallet (Similar model to https://www.bitgo.com/p2sh_safe_address )
  • Cold storage on machines that have never touched the internet and will be hosted by us (so no relying on third parties)

Optional
  • You can set a daily limit on how much you usually spend. When you reach that threshold you are prompted to verify ownership of the account
  • You can also set an estimated time around when you usually buy/sell. Let’s say you usually trade between 7AM/8AM in the morning. If someone makes a sell request on 12AM, further verification is required
  • And obviously more

Thirdly, since we are an advocate of the adoption of DAC’s, we will not only help already established DAC’s with promotion, but we do also want to help them through funding. Therefore we will create an official “DAC Development Fund” in which we donate 20% of our profits. This money would be donated to ambitious Teams and Projects that have been voted and decided on by the community. To add transparency to this entire operation, I would like to get 1 Invictus member and 1 trusted Forum member on the board of the company. They will give additional insight of our operations to the community and act as an independent third-party that control the donation fund with us.

Lastly, (as a long term project of mine), I want to create a platform that functions as a place where ideas are exchanged, knowledge is shared and help is given. It would basically be a Start-up and DAC Owners Manual. Past founders talk about their experience, mistakes, failures and success they have had in the past and what exactly led to it all. Additionally groups will be created in which ideas are exchanged and potential future DAC’s are organized.


Tell us more!

Our focus is it to lower the entry-barrier and give everyone the chance to invest and participate in jaw-dropping new projects. As such, we try to give everyone with Fiat in their hands, the chance to swap to something more technologically advanced and secure. We try to get as many payment options on board as possible, but initially our capabilities are limited. Some of the payment methods we intend to accept are:
  • US Bank Wire (ACH)
  • EU Bank Wire (SEPA)
  • Moneygram
  • Western Union
  • PerfectMoney.com
  • Ukash.com
  • Webmoney
  • Mobile Carrier Payments

(The section below is here to show what can be done)
Once we have the licenses and are operational there is a lot more we can and will do. For example, as a PSP organization within the EU you basically function as a “bank” (without the money lending though). So what does that exactly mean?
  • We can offer insurance on fiat stored on our platform (up to 100,000.00 €)
  • EU residents will get their very own IBAN code. That means that users can give their employer that IBAN and their monthly salaries will be automatically transferred into Bitshares through the platform!
  • We can issue debit cards (I’m not an advocate of this though)
  • Faster and Better banking infrastructure
  • more “legality” to the entire project.

This will be our legal tender for EU residents, but it is our intention to increase the benefits and offers for our users in every country in the world.


What are our goals with this project?

Short-term: Build the very first legal and automatic USD <-> PTS exchange! Not only that, but we do also want to initiate our educational mission for Bitshares, Keyhotee and Protoshares. Some of the methods mentioned here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1578.0 will be used. But our short-term goal is it to prepare ourselves with the needed material for the Bitshares launch so we can get started on educating and acquiring more and more users!

Mid-Term: From the beginning on we want to be one of the first Bitshares exchanges and online wallets. As mentioned above, we do also want to work closely with future DAC’s and implement them on our exchange and wallet. For specific and quite interesting DAC’s that show a true purpose (such as the LTBCoin for example) we will help with the promotion through our platform. For the “DAC Owners Manual” platform I intend to get as many past-founders and people “that have been there and done that” on board as possible and have them share their experience. This platform should eventually grow to an independent community where like-minded people meet each other and come up with the craziest ideas.

Long-Term: Have my mother, that does not know how to turn on a PC (no I am not kidding), understand DAC’s and join a project through her own initiative! Obviously that is a very long sighted goal but I think we have a very clear roadmap on how we need to proceed. With the right resources and the community we will be able to cross and obstacle.

TL;DR The exchange platform is there to lower the barrier of entry to Bitshares and other DAC’s. Additionally it creates an easy to use environment that can be understood and used by your average non-tech oriented user. We will invest heavily on the educational and adaption part of this and other projects!


How to get started

My inquiry to the community is it to invest some Angelshares to this mission so we can get fully started.  The invested money will be used exclusively on the project and will be spent in an open and transparent way.
As mentioned, our first object is it to set-up a functional (and legal) Protoshares <-> Fiat exchange with a multi-signature wallet. After that is completed, we will simultaneously focus on an international expansion and creation of the actual trading platform.
I will also set-up a blog so the entire community will get daily/weekly updates on the progress.

This is a project by the community for the community and the future of DAC's. Therefore I will be happy to get more participants to help us with this project. If you are interested in joining this, please just send me a message with your skillset and what exactly you want to work on!


So what do you guys think: Should Angelshares be invested in this project or not? Please post your opinion below!


The exact required sum will be discussed in detail with the Invictus members and the community can decide whether it is adequate or not in the next thread.


Update on our progress

Legal progress:
  • We have talked with several lawyers over the last week (Hong Kong, Singapore, London, Berlin and the US) and we have set-up a proper proposition on how to get the initial PTS<->Fiat exchange up and running without much hassle.
  • We have been responded to by multiple MTB & MSB licensed businesses and we are currently in talks to work with them for the future. We are just waiting for the support of the community to proceed here.

Development progress:
  • The initial design concept has already been made and we are currently working on a blueprint. Once that is done, we can simply forward it to my friend (who owns a design and dev. company) to work on the front-end.
  • For the wallet we are trying to partner with Bitgo
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 07:16:30 PM by domsch »

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 10:25:59 AM »
I think a DAC platform makes a ton of sense for this niche, but trying to get these licenses is a bit of a killer.  The process is arbitrary, subject to change at any time and expensive.   I support a DAC platform for trading DACs but I think it should ignore licenses because it is not a structure intended to be constrained by such licenses.

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Offline luckybit

Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 11:01:48 AM »
I think a DAC platform makes a ton of sense for this niche, but trying to get these licenses is a bit of a killer.  The process is arbitrary, subject to change at any time and expensive.   I support a DAC platform for trading DACs but I think it should ignore licenses because it is not a structure intended to be constrained by such licenses.
Consider that the goal isn't to attract trend setters and early adopters like us but to get to the masses.  The masses require regulation, which requires licenses and following arbitrary rules. It's the only way to get fiat into the ecosystem.

I think since the operation is centralized the main concern will be if it doesn't toe the line precisely then it will be shut down. How can you make it extremely difficult to shut down despite being centralized while also attracting the mainstream?

I think we should take a unique approach to this problem. Perhaps some sort of franchising mechanism but I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:09:36 PM by luckybit »
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Offline Giga

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 11:05:37 AM »
I've been a vocal supported of a USD-->Protoshares/Bitshares service + secure web wallets. This is very important to insure mainstream adoption and continued success of Bitshares on the long run.

right now process of converting usd-->BTC--->Proto is time consuming, lots of loss with fees etc and complicated for the average user.

Offline domsch

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 11:35:07 AM »
I think a DAC platform makes a ton of sense for this niche, but trying to get these licenses is a bit of a killer.  The process is arbitrary, subject to change at any time and expensive.   I support a DAC platform for trading DACs but I think it should ignore licenses because it is not a structure intended to be constrained by such licenses.

I have talked with a few of my VC contacts and they said that this is still just testing new and unproved grounds. But they did show their interest in joining this with financial help if we show traction and prove the business model.

Owning all the licenses is not needed initially and we can open up the PTS<->Fiat without them (similar to Coinbase). But actually acquiring the licenses will be a long process that asks for patience from all parties. Even if we meet all requirements, it takes several months to get all them in each state. Obviously it will be quite risky since the concept of crypto-currencies and DAC's is still very new to governments and more, clear regulations are yet to come. But see in us as a warrior at the front, that tries to influence decisions and fight for the better.


As luckybit had mentioned, something like this is required to approach the masses. This will be the easy to use solution for them to join something revolutionary. Everyone with fiat will get the chance to opt-in and participate without much hassle. Therefore I think that licenses are required, to set something up that complies with the law and has trading open for everyone.


Setting something like this up and managing it is very resource and time intensive - that's why I don't think that Invictus can pull this off on their own.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:37:22 AM by domsch »

Offline domsch

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 11:43:46 AM »
I think since the operation is centralized the main concern will be if it doesn't toe the line precisely then it will be shut down. How can you make it extremely difficult to shut down despite being decentralized while also attracting the mainstream?

Sadly, I do not have a straight answer for a "Contingency Mechanism" as of now. This project will try it's best to comply with the law and stay up to date on any new laws/hearings to not cause any surprises that will lead to a shut down.

I'll discuss the details on a corporation umbrella with my lawyers when I meet him next week. As of now it is still not clear where to base the main-company but we'll find a proper solution to the problem.

Offline Markus

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 12:50:51 PM »
Sounds like a good thing to have.

How much funding would you want to have from the Angelshares? And when? What is the total capital needed?

51 of the 52 licences you mentioned are for the US. Wouldn't it be easier to not be based there? Or start up somewhere else and try to get the US licences as a second step.






Offline barwizi

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 01:58:19 PM »
I worked on a lot of issues along these lines when i began laying ground work for some of my ideas, and i was always told that it seemed as though the authorities would be making an exception, which they never like to do.

So, i have been working on a crafting the Articles of Decentralization, similar to Articles of Association which are used to define and govern how companies operate, If we have such a document then we have begun laying the foundation that Legalizes DACs.

If we have Bitshares on Board as well as 3 other DACs based in different parts of the world we can then support the "international" part of it. We will then set out to create frameworks similar to how authorities regulate normal companies, but ours will keep in mind the decentralization and privacy parts.

All this gives us a conversation point when we try to pitch our businesses to authorities and even when a bank does their KYC, we'll have structures recognizable for them to interact with. Some lucky guys in less restrictive countries will get ahead first and thier fame will help our cause in restrictive territories.
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Offline domsch

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 02:33:32 PM »
Sounds like a good thing to have.

How much funding would you want to have from the Angelshares? And when? What is the total capital needed?

51 of the 52 licences you mentioned are for the US. Wouldn't it be easier to not be based there? Or start up somewhere else and try to get the US licences as a second step.

Still in discussion about the exact amount. The purpose of this thread is to get the support of the community. Details about the amount will be announced in a follow-up thread/post. I'll have to discuss this thoroughly with Dan/Invictus.

As I had mentioned, getting the licenses is the second step and we do not require them initially to get the platform of PTS<->Fiat started.

Offline domsch

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 02:40:53 PM »
I worked on a lot of issues along these lines when i began laying ground work for some of my ideas, and i was always told that it seemed as though the authorities would be making an exception, which they never like to do.

So, i have been working on a crafting the Articles of Decentralization, similar to Articles of Association which are used to define and govern how companies operate, If we have such a document then we have begun laying the foundation that Legalizes DACs.

If we have Bitshares on Board as well as 3 other DACs based in different parts of the world we can then support the "international" part of it. We will then set out to create frameworks similar to how authorities regulate normal companies, but ours will keep in mind the decentralization and privacy parts.

All this gives us a conversation point when we try to pitch our businesses to authorities and even when a bank does their KYC, we'll have structures recognizable for them to interact with. Some lucky guys in less restrictive countries will get ahead first and thier fame will help our cause in restrictive territories.

This project will lay the foundation of DAC's and their relations with legal entities. Not only will we do research and testing with this to help design the functionality and usage of DAC's, but we will also help get everything sorted about the legality, which is still a huge problem that needs to be solved.


Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 03:58:57 PM »
I think a DAC platform makes a ton of sense for this niche, but trying to get these licenses is a bit of a killer.  The process is arbitrary, subject to change at any time and expensive.   I support a DAC platform for trading DACs but I think it should ignore licenses because it is not a structure intended to be constrained by such licenses.
Consider that the goal isn't to attract trend setters and early adopters like us but to get to the masses.  The masses require regulation, which requires licenses and following arbitrary rules. It's the only way to get fiat into the ecosystem.

I think since the operation is centralized the main concern will be if it doesn't toe the line precisely then it will be shut down. How can you make it extremely difficult to shut down despite being centralized while also attracting the mainstream?

I think we should take a unique approach to this problem. Perhaps some sort of franchising mechanism but I don't know.

You misunderstand me.  This is a practical concern, getting those licenses and going through the processes required to achieve regulatory permission is too expensive to undertake to the point of being Moot.  Invictus could put all the money they've raised so far behind this and wait a year at least to see the result, which could still be "No".

51 of the 52 licences you mentioned are for the US. Wouldn't it be easier to not be based there? Or start up somewhere else and try to get the US licences as a second step.

I support this as a decentralized version that operates in whatever jurisdiction in the world is most advantageous to the purposes of the DAC.  If you tell me you want to spend DAC money on licenses in the US, something has gone horribly awry and we are not appreciating the flexibility a DAC grants you for things like this.

Think Bitstamp - Huge US customer base, in Slovenia
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Offline Pocket Sand

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 04:14:41 PM »
Liquidity drives value for any crypto currency and this is something we'll need for protoshares and definitely bitshares, in my opinion this is an ideal project to use angelshares funding for.

Offline Giga

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 04:31:02 PM »
I think a DAC platform makes a ton of sense for this niche, but trying to get these licenses is a bit of a killer.  The process is arbitrary, subject to change at any time and expensive.   I support a DAC platform for trading DACs but I think it should ignore licenses because it is not a structure intended to be constrained by such licenses.
Consider that the goal isn't to attract trend setters and early adopters like us but to get to the masses.  The masses require regulation, which requires licenses and following arbitrary rules. It's the only way to get fiat into the ecosystem.

I think since the operation is centralized the main concern will be if it doesn't toe the line precisely then it will be shut down. How can you make it extremely difficult to shut down despite being centralized while also attracting the mainstream?

I think we should take a unique approach to this problem. Perhaps some sort of franchising mechanism but I don't know.

You misunderstand me.  This is a practical concern, getting those licenses and going through the processes required to achieve regulatory permission is too expensive to undertake to the point of being Moot.  Invictus could put all the money they've raised so far behind this and wait a year at least to see the result, which could still be "No".

51 of the 52 licences you mentioned are for the US. Wouldn't it be easier to not be based there? Or start up somewhere else and try to get the US licences as a second step.

I support this as a decentralized version that operates in whatever jurisdiction in the world is most advantageous to the purposes of the DAC.  If you tell me you want to spend DAC money on licenses in the US, something has gone horribly awry and we are not appreciating the flexibility a DAC grants you for things like this.

Think Bitstamp - Huge US customer base, in Slovenia

i understand in the united state getting appropriate licenses will be v expensive and exhaust I3 resources. I was also thinking maybe set it up outside the states, slovenia maybe a good option not sure about taxes though, im sure we can do some good research about the location if this idea receives serious backing.

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2014, 04:33:54 PM »
It should not be entirely AGS funded, though.  Domsch's friends in VC, other investors, etc., should be used to fund a very high percentage of the project.


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Offline domsch

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Re: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2014, 05:26:42 PM »

i understand in the united state getting appropriate licenses will be v expensive and exhaust I3 resources. I was also thinking maybe set it up outside the states, slovenia maybe a good option not sure about taxes though, im sure we can do some good research about the location if this idea receives serious backing.

It is our intention to acquire the licenses as soon as possible. As I had mentioned in the update, we are working on obtaining the licenses right now through partnerships with companies that already possess them.  By no means am I asking for $7m in bonds here and I3 to get us a CCO.

The business will be incorporated in several locations so we can assure faster and cheaper trading. Think of it: ACH wire transfers (for the US) and SEPA (within the EU) are resolved mostly within a day and have little to no fees. International wire transfers can cost up to $35 and can take several days to resolve. Therefore it is in our focus to register the business initially in the US and EU. So think of this as Coinbase and Bitstamp combined - we are just more agile, faster and assure compliance with regulations.

 

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