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Offline santaclause102

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BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« on: January 26, 2014, 04:36:56 PM »

... and make BTC less volatile. Here is an article about it: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/09/testing-shillers-nobel-prize-against-the-bitcoin-bubble/

Essentially the article says that  bubbles are more likely to form if there is no way to go short on the asset/currency. And there is no way to go short on BTC ATM without being payed out in something else than BTC.

So someone could go long BitUSD and short BitBtc. Then the drop in Bitshares that would go along with a big (fundamental) drop of the BTC price would be compensated. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 04:48:52 PM by delulo »

Offline CWEvans

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Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2014, 06:53:54 PM »
If not prevent, at least mitigate.

Offline bytemaster

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2014, 07:03:05 PM »
In order to go short BTC you have to leverage up on BTS which means your bet is that BTS will go up relative to BTC... if they are both in a bubble at the same time (larger crypto-equity bubble) then the current BitShares X system will probably have little effect.

To do what you want to do would require that BitShares X support going Short BitBTC using BitUSD as collateral.  This is not currently possible, though with some work we could enable such a thing. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline valtr

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Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 08:10:50 PM »
In order to go short BTC you have to leverage up on BTS which means your bet is that BTS will go up relative to BTC... if they are both in a bubble at the same time (larger crypto-equity bubble) then the current BitShares X system will probably have little effect.

To do what you want to do would require that BitShares X support going Short BitBTC using BitUSD as collateral.  This is not currently possible, though with some work we could enable such a thing.
I think an exchange without possibility shorting BitUSD against  BitBTC, BitGold, BitEUR  etc. would not be complete.  Is there really an intention to release such chain in foreseeable future?

Offline bytemaster

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 08:25:51 PM »
In order to go short BTC you have to leverage up on BTS which means your bet is that BTS will go up relative to BTC... if they are both in a bubble at the same time (larger crypto-equity bubble) then the current BitShares X system will probably have little effect.

To do what you want to do would require that BitShares X support going Short BitBTC using BitUSD as collateral.  This is not currently possible, though with some work we could enable such a thing.
I think an exchange without possibility shorting BitUSD against  BitBTC, BitGold, BitEUR  etc. would not be complete.  Is there really an intention to release such chain in foreseeable future?

The market will produce what is in demand.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline toast

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 09:07:21 PM »
Would it be possible to launch subsequent chains with cross-chain trading so that they can absorb BTS from the original chain? For example 5% chain or complex derivatives chain would be able to work on BTS (from BTS X)

edit: or is it even necessary/desirable? If there is free trade between core assets. Just more appealing to current PTS/AGS holders I guess.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 09:08:55 PM by toast »
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Offline Markus

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Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 10:40:18 PM »
Would it be possible to launch subsequent chains with cross-chain trading so that they can absorb BTS from the original chain? For example 5% chain or complex derivatives chain would be able to work on BTS (from BTS X)

edit: or is it even necessary/desirable? If there is free trade between core assets. Just more appealing to current PTS/AGS holders I guess.

As I understand it, no DAC may have any secrets. That includes owning a private crypto key for an independent chain.
Don't know how this inbuilt cross-chain trading could work otherwise.

Offline toast

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 11:50:46 PM »
Would it be possible to launch subsequent chains with cross-chain trading so that they can absorb BTS from the original chain? For example 5% chain or complex derivatives chain would be able to work on BTS (from BTS X)

edit: or is it even necessary/desirable? If there is free trade between core assets. Just more appealing to current PTS/AGS holders I guess.

As I understand it, no DAC may have any secrets. That includes owning a private crypto key for an independent chain.
Don't know how this inbuilt cross-chain trading could work otherwise.

If two chains "cooperate" they can both recognize a transaction as having occurred on the other chain and do an atomic exchange on behalf of the traders.

Assuming A and B have signed an appropriate transactoin, what happens is that on BTS X the network takes funds from AX and says "ready", and then on BTS 2 the network takes funds from B2 and says "ready", then BTS X gives the funds to BX and BTS 2 gives the funds to A2.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 12:05:46 AM »
Would it be possible to launch subsequent chains with cross-chain trading so that they can absorb BTS from the original chain? For example 5% chain or complex derivatives chain would be able to work on BTS (from BTS X)

edit: or is it even necessary/desirable? If there is free trade between core assets. Just more appealing to current PTS/AGS holders I guess.

As I understand it, no DAC may have any secrets. That includes owning a private crypto key for an independent chain.
Don't know how this inbuilt cross-chain trading could work otherwise.

If two chains "cooperate" they can both recognize a transaction as having occurred on the other chain and do an atomic exchange on behalf of the traders.

Assuming A and B have signed an appropriate transactoin, what happens is that on BTS X the network takes funds from AX and says "ready", and then on BTS 2 the network takes funds from B2 and says "ready", then BTS X gives the funds to BX and BTS 2 gives the funds to A2.

The chains don't do this... the users do.. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading

Two chains that must validate transactions in the other really become 'one chain'.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline toast

Re: BTS can help prevent BTC bubbles
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 12:10:47 AM »
Would it be possible to launch subsequent chains with cross-chain trading so that they can absorb BTS from the original chain? For example 5% chain or complex derivatives chain would be able to work on BTS (from BTS X)

edit: or is it even necessary/desirable? If there is free trade between core assets. Just more appealing to current PTS/AGS holders I guess.

As I understand it, no DAC may have any secrets. That includes owning a private crypto key for an independent chain.
Don't know how this inbuilt cross-chain trading could work otherwise.

If two chains "cooperate" they can both recognize a transaction as having occurred on the other chain and do an atomic exchange on behalf of the traders.

Assuming A and B have signed an appropriate transactoin, what happens is that on BTS X the network takes funds from AX and says "ready", and then on BTS 2 the network takes funds from B2 and says "ready", then BTS X gives the funds to BX and BTS 2 gives the funds to A2.

The chains don't do this... the users do.. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading

Two chains that must validate transactions in the other really become 'one chain'.

That link still has cooperating chains by my definition of cooperation - they have to share an common language for expressing "if know x for H(x) before T", for example

edit: both human parties have to expect the chains to follow some set of rules, even though the incentive for the chain to follow those rules is not baked into the DAC's core functionality

you can imagine a DAC disabling cross-chain trading using the protocol in the link you gave
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:12:21 AM by toast »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline CWEvans

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formal language
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 03:51:06 PM »
It occurs to me at this point, that we are fast approaching the point where we need a typographical system for symbolizing general cryptocurrency concepts, similar to the formal systems used in symbolic logic and cryptography.

Maybe not this, precisely, but something like:

A→B : spend from A to B
A→O : A offers to spend to (i.e., buy from) anyone in the market (bid)
A←O : A offers to receive from (i.e., sell to) anyone in the market (ask)

I'm not sure what the other operators would be, but there are not many atomic concepts that need to be represented in the software. It is in the mixing that the complexity emerges.

An analogy here might be that from electrons, protons, and neutrons, we get elements, then chemistry, then biology, then economics.

 

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