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Offline toast

PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« on: January 31, 2014, 01:25:19 AM »

literature:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1550.0
luckyshares? where is that written about?


Two roles in this DAC:

1) Table hosts. Put down Chips as collateral and start a Game. A game is just a session where the host puts up a verifiable RNG feed and then ends the session with proof that the RNG was fair. For example, a host promises to run a PRNG with Hash("Poker game #101", <secret>, [player_nonces]) as the seed and then publishes <secret> and [player_nonces] at the end. The main PokerChips chain watches hosts and reimburses players when the host acts maliciously.
2) Players connect with each other and with a Host and use a local consensus algorithm to make a mini-blockchain for this Game. The Game becomes one transaction that is processed by the PokerChips DAC, which reallocates shares between players appropriately.


So the high-level idea is:
* DAC enables hosts to compete for players
* DAC insures players against misbehaving hosts
* Hosts and players connect off-chain and generates Games as transactions

So Hosts compete for trust (not enabling collusion) and rake and pay most of the DAC operating costs (main chain consensus) while players get fungible insured poker chips and pay rake
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2014, 02:38:37 AM »
Bravo +1

The only problem I have is that the game requires a full mini blockchain to verify itself. 

You can eliminate the mini, per-game blockchain that gets bundled into a single transaction by using a OpenTransaction Triple Signed Receipt.  This will make the validation of the game much easier (and smaller) and thus help things scale better.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline toast

Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2014, 02:53:17 AM »
Right, "blockchain" just means "chained cryptographically-dependent messages", in this case the mini-blockchain just uses proof-of-intent AKA signatures. No matter what, you need signatures from players on the state of the table up and including their decision, so theoretically at minimum you need a message of the form "sig_a(state_n, sig_b(state_n-1, sig_c(state_n-2, ...)))" initialized by the host and signed as it passes around the table, which is accepted as a transaction into the main chain. Hosts should have some freedom about what the message has to look like as long as players sign off on it (like, "host is allowed to kick players after just 15 seconds" or something).

« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:55:03 AM by toast »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2014, 03:29:00 AM »
Awesome! :)  Online poker is the reason I found out about BTC.  Would this forever end the rigged RNG debate?

Offline Amazon

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2014, 04:30:47 AM »
wow, love this idea so much.

But at present the US has made online poker illegal on a federal level through the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). Will there be a problem?
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Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 06:11:31 AM »
wow, love this idea so much.

But at present the US has made online poker illegal on a federal level through the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). Will there be a problem?

That is not true. Online poker was not made illegal because of the UIGEA. The UIGEA made it illegal for financial institutions to facilitate transactions between poker sites and people.

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 12:51:08 PM »
wow, love this idea so much.

But at present the US has made online poker illegal on a federal level through the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). Will there be a problem?

This is 99% not true.  Playing online poker isn't illegal and it's not even clear that operating a poker site is illegal. Fulltilt Poker (FTP) and Pokerstars (PS) were never charged with operating a poker site.  It was about money laundering and bank fraud.  UIGEA is a law that makes it illegal for financial institutions (banks and credit card companies) to process payments to gambling sites.  A big part is based on the Wire Act.  The Wire Act was originally put in place specifically for sports betting.  The Department of Justice (DOJ) made a legal opinion on the Wire Act shortly after FTP and Pokerstars were charged.

The United States Department of Justice made public documents with its legal opinion on the Wire Act, 18U.S.C. § 1084, concluding that “interstate transmissions of wire communications that do not relate to a ‘sporting event of contest’ fall outside the reach of the Wire Act.”

The legality of online poker is too vague and this is probably the reason the DOJ hasn't tried to shut down any other poker sites after the FTP and PS case.

disclaimer:
I'm not a lawyer and don't claim to be an expert on the law or the legality of online poker.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:55:50 PM by JakeThePanda »

Offline Amazon

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 01:24:41 PM »
Thank you both for the clarification. If I remember correctly, the owner of FTP, Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson were charged for violations of gambling and money-laundering. Not sure what's after that. And now all major sites ban US IP to play real money (although NV and NJ start issueing online poker license).
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Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
Thank you both for the clarification. If I remember correctly, the owner of FTP, Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson were charged for violations of gambling and money-laundering. Not sure what's after that. And now all major sites ban US IP to play real money (although NV and NJ start issueing online poker license).

Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson are walking the streets of Vegas these days.  That should tell you how strong the case was.  Also not true that all sites are banning US IP.  I still play online poker on like 5+ different sites.  There are still many options for US players.  Merge, Winning Poker, Bovada, Revolution and a bunch of other smaller sites.  Seals with Clubs is the biggest BTC poker site. 

You are correct in that major sites like PS don't offer to US players anymore, but that was part of the deal they made with the DOJ.  Same with Party Poker.

End Derail/

back to coding mumbo jumbo.  Stuff I don't understand.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 01:46:39 PM by JakeThePanda »

Offline Amazon

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 03:04:37 PM »
Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson are walking the streets of Vegas these days.  That should tell you how strong the case was.  Also not true that all sites are banning US IP.  I still play online poker on like 5+ different sites.  There are still many options for US players.  Merge, Winning Poker, Bovada, Revolution and a bunch of other smaller sites.  Seals with Clubs is the biggest BTC poker site. 

You are correct in that major sites like PS don't offer to US players anymore, but that was part of the deal they made with the DOJ.  Same with Party Poker.

End Derail/

back to coding mumbo jumbo.  Stuff I don't understand.

Great, please contact me if anyone is making this real. I want to help as much as I can.
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Offline Markus

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 05:37:50 AM »
wow, love this idea so much.

But at present the US has made online poker illegal on a federal level through the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). Will there be a problem?

No problem at all.
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Offline Amazon

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 01:13:38 AM »
Current Pokerstars rake table. If all the rake is returned to the shareholders, it is very profitable.

Stakes                                    % Rake   2 Player Cap   3-4 Player Cap   5+ Player Cap
$0.01/$0.02                             3.50%   $0.30                  $0.30           $0.30
$0.02/$0.05                             4.15%   $0.50                  $0.50           $1.00
$0.05/$0.10 to $0.08/$0.16     4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $1.50
$0.10/$0.25                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $2.00
$0.25/$0.50                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.50
$0.50/$1 to $3/$6                    4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.80
$5/$10 to $10/$20                   4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $3.00
$25/$50   4.50%                      $0.50   $2.00                  $3.00
$50/100   4.50%                      $2.00   $3.00                  $5.00
$100/$200 and above             4.50%   $2.00                  $5.00           $5.00
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Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM »
Current Pokerstars rake table. If all the rake is returned to the shareholders, it is very profitable.

Stakes                                    % Rake   2 Player Cap   3-4 Player Cap   5+ Player Cap
$0.01/$0.02                             3.50%   $0.30                  $0.30           $0.30
$0.02/$0.05                             4.15%   $0.50                  $0.50           $1.00
$0.05/$0.10 to $0.08/$0.16     4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $1.50
$0.10/$0.25                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $2.00
$0.25/$0.50                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.50
$0.50/$1 to $3/$6                    4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.80
$5/$10 to $10/$20                   4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $3.00
$25/$50   4.50%                      $0.50   $2.00                  $3.00
$50/100   4.50%                      $2.00   $3.00                  $5.00
$100/$200 and above             4.50%   $2.00                  $5.00           $5.00

Rake would have to be much lower than traditional poker sites. 

Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 04:38:47 PM »
Current Pokerstars rake table. If all the rake is returned to the shareholders, it is very profitable.

Stakes                                    % Rake   2 Player Cap   3-4 Player Cap   5+ Player Cap
$0.01/$0.02                             3.50%   $0.30                  $0.30           $0.30
$0.02/$0.05                             4.15%   $0.50                  $0.50           $1.00
$0.05/$0.10 to $0.08/$0.16     4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $1.50
$0.10/$0.25                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.00           $2.00
$0.25/$0.50                             4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.50
$0.50/$1 to $3/$6                    4.50%   $0.50                  $1.50           $2.80
$5/$10 to $10/$20                   4.50%   $0.50                 $1.50           $3.00
$25/$50   4.50%                      $0.50   $2.00                  $3.00
$50/100   4.50%                      $2.00   $3.00                  $5.00
$100/$200 and above             4.50%   $2.00                  $5.00           $5.00

Rake would have to be much lower than traditional poker sites.
Rake on Seals with Clubs - the bitcoin poker site - is already much lower than traditional online poker sites I believe. A rake free system would be something special, of course that might not be shareholder friendly.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 05:11:02 PM »
I have some strong connections to high roller players that I would support here if you would find that helpful in some way at some point...

 

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