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Offline xxeyes

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Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« on: February 03, 2014, 05:39:02 PM »

I just came across something called Counterparty, which appears to be a new competitor to Bitshares:
https://counterparty.co/about/

I would be interested to hear people's opinions about it. 

Offline bytemaster

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 06:05:09 PM »
I just came across something called Counterparty, which appears to be a new competitor to Bitshares:
https://counterparty.co/about/

I would be interested to hear people's opinions about it.

Interesting with the following problems:

1) non fungible assets
2) no dividends
3) proof-of-burn is idiotic
4) depends upon price feeds.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Giga

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 08:15:53 PM »
I just came across something called Counterparty, which appears to be a new competitor to Bitshares:
https://counterparty.co/about/

I would be interested to hear people's opinions about it.

Interesting with the following problems:

1) non fungible assets
2) no dividends
3) proof-of-burn is idiotic
4) depends upon price feeds.

 +5%

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 08:29:38 PM »
XCP as a metacoin is rather a competitor to MSC. Market cap of MSC was halved since the announcement of XCP.

I burned some BTC. The project seems cool.

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 08:45:03 PM »
I just came across something called Counterparty, which appears to be a new competitor to Bitshares:
https://counterparty.co/about/

I would be interested to hear people's opinions about it.

Interesting with the following problems:

1) non fungible assets
2) no dividends
3) proof-of-burn is idiotic
4) depends upon price feeds.

FYI.  The below site has a section on why XCP is better than Protoshares.  It doesn't say much.

http://xcpbitcoin.com/
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 08:46:49 PM by JakeThePanda »

Offline toast

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 08:55:05 PM »
Quote
Liquidity plays a major role in determining a currency’s viability and that is why XCP has advanced features which enable it to have a liquidity advantage over Protoshares.

The only thing that looks like an argument I could find, and it's a pretty bad argument
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline toast

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 09:34:27 PM »
3) proof-of-burn is idiotic

You keep making that point but I don't think you have as strong a case as you think. I think your main argument is that they could have injected 2100 btc into XCP development instead of burning them. Really I think it's actually the same model as PTS.

Think of it like 2100btc worth of capital made the bet that this btc would be worth more if it were labeled XCP. It's no different from trading BTC for PTS, they just "traded" BTC for XCP by redistributing the value of those BTC to remaining BTC holders (everyone implicitly shorting XCP).

You still have 2100btc worth of capital (actually more since the price doubled) and now it's *permanently commited* to working in the XCP ecosystem. Sure the XCP developers specifically didn't raise much money, but you guys didn't raise money from PTS either.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 10:41:16 PM »
3) proof-of-burn is idiotic

You keep making that point but I don't think you have as strong a case as you think. I think your main argument is that they could have injected 2100 btc into XCP development instead of burning them. Really I think it's actually the same model as PTS.

Think of it like 2100btc worth of capital made the bet that this btc would be worth more if it were labeled XCP. It's no different from trading BTC for PTS, they just "traded" BTC for XCP by redistributing the value of those BTC to remaining BTC holders (everyone implicitly shorting XCP).

You still have 2100btc worth of capital (actually more since the price doubled) and now it's *permanently commited* to working in the XCP ecosystem. Sure the XCP developers specifically didn't raise much money, but you guys didn't raise money from PTS either.

Well PTS is idiotic in the sense that millions were spent on mining hardware and electric consumption, but at least it created a coin and provided some measure of security for the burning. 

I guess it doesn't matter after the fact whether XCP was created by burning or funding development.  XCP's value doesn't come from the PoB.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline thisisausername

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 10:49:55 PM »
Proof of burn is riskier than PTS/AGS as well.   Keep in mind:

"Disclaimer: The code being released here is of alpha-quality and under heavy development. You should expect to encounter significant bugs when using it. It is even possible that a bug might cause you might lose some money. The Counterparty team will do everything in its power to prevent this from happening, but this technology is very new, and the implementation is not yet well-tested. In particular, we may at some point have to change the Counterparty protocol in a not backwards-compatible way, if such a change is necessary to fix a bad bug or an exploit. As always, don't invest more than you can afford to lose."

PTS and AGS have no such issue.  If the test bitshares fail due to bugs, they fail; but test bitshares 2 will simply take on the mantle and carry on.
Pjo39s6hfpWexsZ6gEBC9iwH9HTAgiEXTG

Offline xxeyes

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 06:26:13 AM »
Thanks for the responses.  I'm neither an economist nor a computer scientist.  I've only recently stumbled upon the world of digital currencies and DACs.  I find it fascinating, but difficult to follow because of the complexity, and increasingly because of the incredible growth in activity.

From my very limited understanding of proof of burn, it does sound a bit "idiotic".  I would think Proof of Donate would be a more sensible concept - money is "burned" by donating to a charity (which cannot give refunds).  Would such a thing be possible?

Offline Mrrr

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 04:40:42 PM »
Here a small explanation of Proof of Burn with a link to a larger wiki.

http://www.economicsofbitcoin.com/2012/12/the-economics-of-avoiding-real-resource.html

With proof of work you waste energy for no other reason than proving commitment. Proof of Burn doesn't consume energy. The 2124 BTC that were 'burned' weren't wasted: their value was distributed amongst all bitcoin holders. (thanks to Counterparty your BTC is now worth 0.017257947% more)

Apart from that it is a way of 'investing' in a concept without needing to trust the developer. If the Mastercoin team had decided to make a run for it they'd all be left with a villa on the Caymans. If the Counterparty team had decided to make a run for it they'd be left with 5000$ in change and the 'best prank in the universe' award.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 04:46:03 PM »
Here a small explanation of Proof of Burn with a link to a larger wiki.

http://www.economicsofbitcoin.com/2012/12/the-economics-of-avoiding-real-resource.html

With proof of work you waste energy for no other reason than proving commitment. Proof of Burn doesn't consume energy. The 2124 BTC that were 'burned' weren't wasted: their value was distributed amongst all bitcoin holders. (thanks to Counterparty your BTC is now worth 0.017257947% more)

Apart from that it is a way of 'investing' in a concept without needing to trust the developer. If the Mastercoin team had decided to make a run for it they'd all be left with a villa on the Caymans. If the Counterparty team had decided to make a run for it they'd be left with 5000$ in change and the 'best prank in the universe' award.

Yes, it paid a dividend to BTC holders but how does paying a dividend to the BTC holders help either the developers of Counterparty or the new stake holders of Counterparty?   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

clout

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 04:50:42 PM »
Are people using Counterparty now? Where is it in development relative to bitshares?

Offline Mrrr

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 05:32:45 PM »
Quote
Here a small explanation of Proof of Burn with a link to a larger wiki.

http://www.economicsofbitcoin.com/2012/12/the-economics-of-avoiding-real-resource.html

With proof of work you waste energy for no other reason than proving commitment. Proof of Burn doesn't consume energy. The 2124 BTC that were 'burned' weren't wasted: their value was distributed amongst all bitcoin holders. (thanks to Counterparty your BTC is now worth 0.017257947% more)

Apart from that it is a way of 'investing' in a concept without needing to trust the developer. If the Mastercoin team had decided to make a run for it they'd all be left with a villa on the Caymans. If the Counterparty team had decided to make a run for it they'd be left with 5000$ in change and the 'best prank in the universe' award.

Quote
Yes, it paid a dividend to BTC holders but how does paying a dividend to the BTC holders help either the developers of Counterparty or the new stake holders of Counterparty?   

It did not. I think its the lesser evil. It did however make possible a fair IPO. It also negotiated the risk of scamming by the dev team and it was a well executed test of faith for the investors. I burned 80$, but some burned ten-thousands. Now that takes balls.

@clout: its already functional but not finished and not yet user friendly (command line only, GUI eta 2 weeks)

EDIT: On my way to the loo I realized the burning of 2124 BTC has a ritualistic touch to it. I sacrificed part of my wealth for something that I believe in. Others will infer that no sane person would make this sacrifice unless they really believed they had something to gain from it. This significantly increases the credibility of the project. Benefiting both zealots and developers since donations will pour in as the project becomes more popular.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:50:31 PM by Mrrr »

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: Bitshares versus Counterparty?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 06:04:34 PM »
And Satoshi show us that funding is not mandatory to make great things!

 

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