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Offline bungeebones

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Where to start?
« on: February 09, 2014, 11:16:12 PM »

This is my first post here. I've been involved with Bitcoin for over a year, have watched tons of videos, listened to tons of shows and read pages upon pages of information. I converted my advertising site completely over to a Bitcoin only system so that all payments in and all commissions out are entirely in Bitcoin. I liken it to mining with Bitcoin with the traffic from your web site instead of electricty. It doesn't create Bitcoin of course. It uses a php web directory script you install in a webpage to aggregate your web traffic with the network while, at the same time, sets you up with a shopping cart to sell traffic for the entire network.

Anyway, I have a number of goals for the project that Bitshares seems like it could enable. For example, each website that installs the web directory script on their site and, thus contributes traffic to this new advertising network are, in my mind, venture capitalists by investing their web traffic without any guarantee of a return.  I would like some way to give these investors a permanent stock type ownership stake in the project's success. For example, I structured this as a multi-level commission system so there is a potential that even a small or new website could register a very productive site under them which develops a large downline. But if in the course of time they decide to discontinue their site I have coded it that they can and their commission earnings from their downline continues perpetually. Since that is coded in it would be great to put that asset into a blockchain and then it could become transferable and inheritable.

Also, as it is built now it is too centralized and I could use help figuring out how to de-centralise it. The script currently works by enabling every installation site to download all the web directory's categories and links from my central server. They also have an "Add A Link" button which generates a unique registration form for their users to add a link in all the directories with their one submission. They can choose free or paid advertising but if/when they pay the registering site gets half of the Bitcoin based advertising fee. This is just a start and altogether there are 8 modules or functions that I would like to decentralise. Most are data related such as retrieving data or submitting dat to the server. Some of those may be able to be moved onto a block chain. And then there is the commission disbursement which could be handled by a multi-sig arrangement.

With all that what is the real purpose of this? Well I can't stand the monopoly Google has on search engine results pages. They display 60 something percent of the total and there are two or three more that do the rest. In my mind, why be concerned about Central Banking when you have centralised information distribution! This idea is to decentralise links, make it so that small websites can participate as much in the distribution as any other and even provide a way that charities can use this to basically earn support out of "found money".

So, where do I start trying to fit part or all of my idea into Bitshares?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Where to start?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 12:03:02 AM »
BitShares is a concept, a set of building blocks, for building profitable Decentralized Autonomous Companies so what you are really proposing is a new kind of DAC geared toward revenue.

Here is an idea I have along these lines... 

  Have a DAC sell Ad-words which merely pair links to words.   These words can be set by destroying more than the current balance on the words and the current balance falls by 10% per day. 

Then a website can install a simple script that will link that words according to settings in the blockchain.  The more sites that do this the more valuable the blockchain will become. 

You could even build in banner ad spots that are up for the highest bidder.

The only thing you would need to manage is some kinds of tagging system to prevent inappropriate ads from being bumped to the top.   Though I suspect this could be done with an off chain filtering service. 

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bungeebones

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 01:05:24 AM »
Thanks.

So how/where do I go to start setting up a DAC? Or is it too early for that. What I mean is how flexible is a DAT? Do I have to have all the "t"s crossed and the "i"s dotted before or do I do that after starting a DAC?

Also, I already have the pricing mechanism and the multi-level commission disbursement set up. It is, again, centralised but your ideas may be just what I need to get them easily switched to a blockchain. That would be great.

The pricing mechanism is by nonchalant style of competitive bidding that, on one hand, gets the highest price for the webmasters selling the traffic but also doesn't make the bidding so cut throat that you have to babysit the thing to maintain your position.

The commission disbursement is daily but credits an Internal ledger (needs to be decentralised). I currently state a policy that the Bitcoin can be withdrawn when greater than $25 worth but can be used immediately to purchase better link position.

I am thinking I may be able to use a multi-sig wallet to disburse commissions into. With that I would enable every site in the network to receive the Bitcoin payment and make the disbursement to the rest of the wallet owners (i.e. their upline and/or downline).

Offline bytemaster

Re: Where to start?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 01:10:20 AM »
I would remove all centralizing aspects from your system.   There is no way to audit sites or the bandwidth / ads provided and thus attempts at paying them out will be fraught with problems. 

Instead, let websites invest in the shares, post ads, and receive dividends / appreciation from their participation.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bungeebones

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 02:15:33 AM »
"I would remove all centralizing aspects from your system."

Here is the list of the main parts/functions of the directory and the ease/difficulty I see in decentralising them.
Advertiser Registration - currently centralised - provided by typical registration/login like for the forum. It's basic function is authentication. I believe this could be given out with a coin, and/or a wallet address?
Advertiser Link Insertion - currently centralised - a form accessed after authentication where they 1) select their category and 2) enter url, title, description, location perhaps. Is this the area that your idea above in a previous post was addressing? Decentralising of the category list could be fairly easy I think and constructive for foreign languages. Basically new categories would be submitted like a transaction is and after a certain number of confirmations the category goes live. Might need a blockchain for links and another for categories?
Link Approval - currently performed by me or occasional part-time help. Seems one of the hardest to decentralised. The benefit of centralised human review is efficiency and cost savings. Otherwise, each location is redundantly doing the same tasks that I could do for everyone. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of links not meeting terms of service and paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.
Conversion to Paid -  Currently achieved by a script from their User Control Panel (centralized) Sites initially sign up for free (the default) and to get better placement  they preload their account with at least a days worth of Bitcoin and can then buy better placement. The payment goes to a cold storage address and their online account is credited. That night a cron (centralized) runs that distributes the commission NOMINALLY to the selling site as well as its upline. To decentralise this need some automated way to retrieve funds directly from the buyer in a manner like a pre-authorized subscription credit card payment. Is such a thing possible using the block chain?
Conversion of site to be an Advertiser/Monetizer - currently performed by installing two blocks of PHP code into their own web page template to create a web directory and by doing a few configurations at the server. This could be replaced with a blockchain that lists all the currently valid links and their respective categories. As new sites get added they are added to the blockchain, as the are found to be dead or the owners withdraw they are removed. That list would have to also contain their payment status and the amount and the date/time of their registration (for ordering in the display page). This new proposal means basically using a block chain as a database. I've never done that, don't know if it can be done.
Payment Processing - currently using Bitcoinmonitor.net to scan the blockchain for the offline wallet address transactions. It sends a report to my server (centralized) that then credits their account. Once their balance is adjusted it shows in their Control Panel and they can purchase better placement. Fairly easy to decentralise. The script could be sent to each node so that any node could watch their own wallet address and credit the user's account.
Commission Processing - centralised, performed daily. Script reads purchases made and distributes each member up the upline's percentage of the total payment. It follows an algorithm where the selling site gets 50% of the fee. From then on the algorithm uses the remainder as a running balance and pays the upline half of the remainder until it reaches the top level which gets the entire remainder. Since the seller always gets 50% the uplines get smaller and smaller commissions the deeper it goes. I mentioned in previous posts I think multisig wallets could be used at any of the downline sites that would let them receive payments and do the disbursement, or, they could run a daily cron which takes all payments they received and distribute them to their line. I see a problem with refunds though. If someone deposits 20 days worth of advertising fees in their account and quits before using it all I can reimburse them. If the fee for the 20 days was distributed immediately it would be difficult to recover it from all the other wallets.
Link Monitoring and removal Sites come in and sites leave regularly. Dead links need to be removed. This is currently a chore of the admin. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of dead links paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.

So as you can see, I think it would be a handful to decentralise all of it and I'm not even sure if it can be done. Is there a way a DAC can contract out parts of its less critical functions to centralised entities? If the remainders can ever be decentralised then the contracts can be left to expire.

Offline toast

Re: Where to start?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 02:43:32 AM »
"I would remove all centralizing aspects from your system."

Here is the list of the main parts/functions of the directory and the ease/difficulty I see in decentralising them.
Advertiser Registration - currently centralised - provided by typical registration/login like for the forum. It's basic function is authentication. I believe this could be given out with a coin, and/or a wallet address?
keyhotee
Quote
Advertiser Link Insertion - currently centralised - a form accessed after authentication where they 1) select their category and 2) enter url, title, description, location perhaps. Is this the area that your idea above in a previous post was addressing? Decentralising of the category list could be fairly easy I think and constructive for foreign languages. Basically new categories would be submitted like a transaction is and after a certain number of confirmations the category goes live. Might need a blockchain for links and another for categories?
Yep, pretty straightforward to build this as transactions on a blockchain
Quote
Link Approval - currently performed by me or occasional part-time help. Seems one of the hardest to decentralised. The benefit of centralised human review is efficiency and cost savings. Otherwise, each location is redundantly doing the same tasks that I could do for everyone. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of links not meeting terms of service and paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.
This one's trickier, lots of different approaches so I'll let someone else go for it
Quote
Conversion to Paid -  Currently achieved by a script from their User Control Panel (centralized) Sites initially sign up for free (the default) and to get better placement  they preload their account with at least a days worth of Bitcoin and can then buy better placement. The payment goes to a cold storage address and their online account is credited. That night a cron (centralized) runs that distributes the commission NOMINALLY to the selling site as well as its upline. To decentralise this need some automated way to retrieve funds directly from the buyer in a manner like a pre-authorized subscription credit card payment. Is such a thing possible using the block chain?
Easiest thing is to just require buyers to pre-pay, no credit involved just deposit your shares into an account that the blockchain has access to
Quote
Conversion of site to be an Advertiser/Monetizer - currently performed by installing two blocks of PHP code into their own web page template to create a web directory and by doing a few configurations at the server. This could be replaced with a blockchain that lists all the currently valid links and their respective categories. As new sites get added they are added to the blockchain, as the are found to be dead or the owners withdraw they are removed. That list would have to also contain their payment status and the amount and the date/time of their registration (for ordering in the display page). This new proposal means basically using a block chain as a database. I've never done that, don't know if it can be done.
Payment Processing - currently using Bitcoinmonitor.net to scan the blockchain for the offline wallet address transactions. It sends a report to my server (centralized) that then credits their account. Once their balance is adjusted it shows in their Control Panel and they can purchase better placement. Fairly easy to decentralise. The script could be sent to each node so that any node could watch their own wallet address and credit the user's account.
You have the right idea.
Quote
Commission Processing - centralised, performed daily. Script reads purchases made and distributes each member up the upline's percentage of the total payment. It follows an algorithm where the selling site gets 50% of the fee. From then on the algorithm uses the remainder as a running balance and pays the upline half of the remainder until it reaches the top level which gets the entire remainder. Since the seller always gets 50% the uplines get smaller and smaller commissions the deeper it goes. I mentioned in previous posts I think multisig wallets could be used at any of the downline sites that would let them receive payments and do the disbursement, or, they could run a daily cron which takes all payments they received and distribute them to their line. I see a problem with refunds though. If someone deposits 20 days worth of advertising fees in their account and quits before using it all I can reimburse them. If the fee for the 20 days was distributed immediately it would be difficult to recover it from all the other wallets.
I don't see the problem, have buyers prepay but then actually debit their account per 1000 impressions or whatever
Quote
Link Monitoring and removal Sites come in and sites leave regularly. Dead links need to be removed. This is currently a chore of the admin. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of dead links paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.
Same as link approval above, gonna let someone else answer this

Quote
So as you can see, I think it would be a handful to decentralise all of it and I'm not even sure if it can be done. Is there a way a DAC can contract out parts of its less critical functions to centralised entities? If the remainders can ever be decentralised then the contracts can be left to expire.

So it seems like there's really two parts that require potentially-centralized human attention, related to link quality. It may be possible to approximate this using a semi-centralized crowdsourcing solution, sort of like reCAPTCHA or duolingo
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bungeebones

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 03:11:32 AM »
Awesome toast! Thanks. Before I go through them each again and refine the approach can a DAC still be used if some centralised functions aren't in the DAC ? I would assume yes, since it can act like it's own entity and can contract. If so, I could grab the most important functionality to decentralise and the "low hanging fruit" first, put them in the DAC, and leave any remaining functions outside the DAC. If the outside functions were non-critical and could be contracted from more than the current provider then there would always be a plan B and motivation for the provider to do the job correctly.

Offline bungeebones

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 01:52:36 PM »
In the case of "Link Monitoring and removal " for example, could I leave that functionality out of a DAC and add it in later? I also came up with another question - can a DAC be inside of another DAC like corporations can have subsidiaries?
Thanks

 

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