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Offline bytemaster

BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« on: February 16, 2014, 02:40:59 AM »

There has been a lot of confusion over how Invictus will handle our product roadmap with BitShares X, PTS, and AGS honoring.   We have spent some time discussing the roadmap and upgrade path and would like to share with you all our current thinking.   As always, this roadmap is subject to change as necessary to adjust to market conditions.

BitShares XT -  The Experimental Test Network for BitShares X will be launched as soon as we have a minimal viable product.  In the goal of launching a minimal viable product we have stripped features that would delay release and which complicate the system.  As such BitShares XT has removed certain features:  Ripple Consensus, Interest on BitAssets, Escrow Transaction, Etc.   
BitShares XI  -  Will be our experimental network to see what happens if BitAssets pay a Fixed Interest rate. 
BitShares XV -  Will be our experimental network to see what happens if BitAssets set their interest rate via a parallel prediction market.
BitShares XC -  WIll replace TaPOS with the consensus algorithm and may come an variants with I, V, and T. 

Of course others such as Toast have suggested that once BitShares XT has launched successfully they would like to launch versions for stocks, commodities, and other items and his plan was to honor AGS and PTS 50/50 just like BitShares XT.    We have thought long and hard about the implications of this roadmap on the demand for BitShares XT with the potential to be competing with what may be perceived as upgrades  (but which could be complete failures...) and concluded that this entire product line of decentralized banks and exchanges are all derived from a single PTS/AGS honoring DAC concept.   

If our goal is to see the value of BitShares XT to grow then we need to future-proof peoples investment in BitShares XT after launch against being devalued by one of our planned upgrades or the flood of variants with different assets.   For this reason we have decided to recommend that all future chains based upon the concept behind BitShares X be initialized with a snapshot (100%) of the state of BitShares XT around the time of their launch.   Thus the primary vehicle for investing in future BitShares X chains will be to own BitShares XT.... likewise, chains that are variants of BitShares XI or XV should honor their parent with 100% stake.     

When honoring a prior BitShares X chain only the BTS is honored and NOT the BitAssets.   BitAsset owners do not own a stake in the chain, they are hedged against the chain and there is no way to honor their positions in the new chain because the prices and collateral etc would not be proper.

Because BitShares XT is a test chain, there is potential for catastrophic bugs that result in invalid allocation of shares.  If this misallocation cannot be easily remedied by fixing a few transactions then we will recommend reverting back to the original genesis block and try again.  Therefore, the Feb 28th snapshot will be the most important snapshot for BitShares X investment.  After Feb 28th, if you want a stake in future BitShares X chains and variants your only option will be to invest directly in BitShares XT.   However, all investments in BitShares XT proper should hold off until the likelihood of a reset to genesis due to catastrophic failure has passed.   Remember this is an economic experiment with new software with minimal testing and so I do not recommend investing anything you cannot afford to lose between Feb 28th and when XT has enough time under its belt that it has earned its valuation.     This is Bitcoin 2008...

How does this effect AGS and PTS?

We will be developing additional blockchains not based upon BitShares X business model. 

These chains include:

BitShares DNS
BitShares Bingo
BitShares Music
BitShares Vote
...   

And many others that we have designs for.  In the interest of giving one experiment time to run without competing with yourselves, we are considering focusing on one of these other DACs while the BitShares XT experiment runs before moving ahead with XI, XV, or XC.  We will however encourage others to implement these variants and experiment with them in parallel if they are so inclined.


What does this mean for DACs?

It means that in a free market where many variants will be launched of every idea under the sun and to maximize the value of your chain and the acceptance of new variants on the initial idea, the stake holders of the parent chain should be honored 100%.

PTS & AGS are the parent chain for all NEW DAC ideas and not for all instances of these ideas.  Once a chain is spawned from PTS and AGS future variants should honor that chain rather than going back to PTS & AGS.    This is keeping with our model where we said that honoring a AGS and PTS honoring DAC with 100% is just as good as honoring AGS and PTS directly. 

Launching BitShares XT and Future DACs

In the interest of keeping Invictus focused on developing software and free of any regulatory risks associated with actually launching these potentially controversial businesses, we have decided that we will not actually launch any blockchains or host any servers for them.   We will produce the software and it will be up to some enterprising individual to take our code, make the minimal modifications necessary to package it, set up the seed server, and host a site to download it.    In the opinion of our lawyers and advisors there is a significant regulatory difference between writing and publishing open source software and deploying software.   A company that develops software for Bitstamp, Mt.Gox, or the New York Stock Exchange is not subject to the regulation that the exchanges are subject to.  That said, I am sure there are people who live in more enlightened countries who can legally take this step.

We will market and promote the potential of our software independent of any particular instance that is deployed.   Therefore, from our perspective the launch of BitShares XT is merely a stable 'release' tag in our github repository and nothing more.   We feel it is in the best interest of everyone in the community (PTS and AGS holders) if Invictus can take as many steps as possible to avoid any Unnecessary Imperial EntanglementsTM.





« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:31:05 PM by bytemaster »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 03:15:00 AM »
"We will market and promote the potential of our software independent of any particular instance that is deployed.   Therefore, from our perspective the launch of BitShares XT is merely a stable 'release' tag in our github repository and nothing more."

Would you please extrapolate on this statement with regard to what a non-tech investor in PTS and AGS would be advised to do?

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 03:41:06 AM »
"We will market and promote the potential of our software independent of any particular instance that is deployed.   Therefore, from our perspective the launch of BitShares XT is merely a stable 'release' tag in our github repository and nothing more."

Would you please extrapolate on this statement with regard to what a non-tech investor in PTS and AGS would be advised to do?

There is no change from the perspective of PTS and AGS investors getting a cut in future DACs.  This is merely an issue of decentralizing the launch of DACs.

This is good news for PTS and AGS holders because it further protects your investment in our future ability to develop new DACs. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline thisisausername

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 06:28:46 AM »
This sounds like it will lead to an ugly decoupling of value at the PTS/AGS BitShares XT split (i.e. PTS/AGS will lose a lot of value on the 28th).

It seems like we have a few different sources of value here and basically we're just talking about where we want them to fall.

BitShares token value
BitShares (presumed) utility value
Other DAC value

With the old plan BitShares value reverted to PTS/AGS in the case of XT failing whereas now it stays with XT.  So we remove some uncertainty of how much BitShares XT will be worth at the cost of extracting a lot of the value of PTS/AGS and putting it into XT.

Both plans seem reasonable to me, with their own benefits and drawbacks; if I'm understanding correctly.
Pjo39s6hfpWexsZ6gEBC9iwH9HTAgiEXTG

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 06:39:11 AM »
AGS and PTS remain a vehicle for getting a cut of what we are doing overall... having some of this value transfer to BitShares XT is better than BitShares XT failing to gain traction because people are afraid of constant resets to AGS/PTS holders.   People would be asking themselves, should I buy XT or wait for the interest bearing version.   As a result many people would hold off buying XT.    If every new chain then went back to AGS/PTS then that would significantly undermine BitShares X which will soon have its own life and chain.

Holders of AGS and PTS actually don't lose any value, it just moves from one bucket into another.    It also does not hurt our AGS funding with PTS because we will now have a bunch of BTS that will be going up in value faster. 

We will attempt to produce a roadmap before the 28th that highlights the future value of PTS and AGS.   Personally I think too much weight is being placed on BitShares X and I am equally optimistic about the value of our other DACs.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Markus

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 07:20:04 AM »
This roadmap with a chain of chains sounds like a good idea to me.
I don't care which bucket has the water in it as long as I own both buckets. :)

If our goal is to see the value of BitShares XT to grow then we need to future-proof peoples investment in BitShares XT after launch against being devalued by one of our planned upgrades or the flood of variants with different assets.   For this reason we have decided to recommend that all future chains based upon the concept behind BitShares X be initialized with a snapshot (100%) of the state of BitShares XT around the time of their launch.   Thus the primary vehicle for investing in future BitShares X chains will be to own BitShares XT.... likewise, chains that are variants of BitShares XI or XV should honor their parent with 100% stake.     

When honoring a prior BitShares X chain only the BTS is honored and NOT the BitAssets.   BitAsset owners do not own a stake in the chain, they are hedged against the chain and there is no way to honor their positions in the new chain because the prices and collateral etc would not be proper.

I assume, but could you please confirm:
When a BTS spapshot is taken, any BTS held as collateral for shorting a BitAsset is accounted towards the one holding the short position.

Offline yidaidaxia

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 08:38:58 AM »
The whole idea does make sense to me. It makes me realized much more that we have very long way to go before but I do think the road map will dirve us to the right way. Thanks for the information and smart decision.

Just one question for below paragraph, I assume but want to confirm that that means 2/28 will be a REAL FINAL allocation for BitShares X from PTS/AGS holding status, even finally the test chain is dead, we will just restart it from the 2/28 allocation status instead of making a new PTS/AGS snapshoot as said before, NO more PTS/AGS snapshoot for Bitshares X allocation, correct?

Because BitShares XT is a test chain, there is potential for catastrophic bugs that result in invalid allocation of shares.  If this misallocation cannot be easily remedied by fixing a few transactions then we will recommend reverting back to the original genesis block and try again.  Therefore, the Feb 28th snapshot will be the most important snapshot for BitShares X investment.  After Feb 28th, if you want a stake in future BitShares X chains and variants your only option will be to invest directly in BitShares XT.

PTS: PmUT7H6e7Hvp9WtKtxphK8AMeRndnow2S8   /   BTC: 1KsJzs8zYppVHBp7CbyvQAYrEAWXEcNvmp   /   BTSX: yidaidaxia (暂用)
新浪微博: yidaidaxia_郝晓曦 QQ:36191175试手补天

Offline toast

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 10:31:32 AM »
The whole idea does make sense to me. It makes me realized much more that we have very long way to go before but I do think the road map will dirve us to the right way. Thanks for the information and smart decision.

Just one question for below paragraph, I assume but want to confirm that that means 2/28 will be a REAL FINAL allocation for BitShares X from PTS/AGS holding status, even finally the test chain is dead, we will just restart it from the 2/28 allocation status instead of making a new PTS/AGS snapshoot as said before, NO more PTS/AGS snapshoot for Bitshares X allocation, correct?

Because BitShares XT is a test chain, there is potential for catastrophic bugs that result in invalid allocation of shares.  If this misallocation cannot be easily remedied by fixing a few transactions then we will recommend reverting back to the original genesis block and try again.  Therefore, the Feb 28th snapshot will be the most important snapshot for BitShares X investment.  After Feb 28th, if you want a stake in future BitShares X chains and variants your only option will be to invest directly in BitShares XT.

I agree, I think I3 should commit to the feb 28th snapshot even in the case of catastrophic chain failure after the end of March.

I like the roadmap and the idea that BTS X will be used to make snapshots for BTS X* chains. With the above suggestion I would like it even more.
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Offline yidaidaxia

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 10:46:58 AM »
The whole idea does make sense to me. It makes me realized much more that we have very long way to go before but I do think the road map will dirve us to the right way. Thanks for the information and smart decision.

Just one question for below paragraph, I assume but want to confirm that that means 2/28 will be a REAL FINAL allocation for BitShares X from PTS/AGS holding status, even finally the test chain is dead, we will just restart it from the 2/28 allocation status instead of making a new PTS/AGS snapshoot as said before, NO more PTS/AGS snapshoot for Bitshares X allocation, correct?

Because BitShares XT is a test chain, there is potential for catastrophic bugs that result in invalid allocation of shares.  If this misallocation cannot be easily remedied by fixing a few transactions then we will recommend reverting back to the original genesis block and try again.  Therefore, the Feb 28th snapshot will be the most important snapshot for BitShares X investment.  After Feb 28th, if you want a stake in future BitShares X chains and variants your only option will be to invest directly in BitShares XT.

I agree, I think I3 should commit to the feb 28th snapshot even in the case of catastrophic chain failure after the end of March.

I like the roadmap and the idea that BTS X will be used to make snapshots for BTS X* chains. With the above suggestion I would like it even more.

I actually think Bytemaster already make that statement that 2/28 snapshot is the final one for BithsharesX allocated to PTS/AGS. Below two sentences in his post is pretty clear for this point, I just ask the question to double check.

"we will recommend reverting back to the original genesis block and try again"
"After Feb 28th...only option will be to invest directly in BitShares XT"
PTS: PmUT7H6e7Hvp9WtKtxphK8AMeRndnow2S8   /   BTC: 1KsJzs8zYppVHBp7CbyvQAYrEAWXEcNvmp   /   BTSX: yidaidaxia (暂用)
新浪微博: yidaidaxia_郝晓曦 QQ:36191175试手补天

Offline graffenwalder

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 11:34:18 AM »
Can't wait to see the 12 day roller coaster ride for PTS, when this news comes out.

Offline voldemort628

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 01:22:48 PM »
In short, the snapshot on 28th feb will be used for bitshares xt, and bitshares xt snapshots will be used for other bitshares chains.
 And other dacs will use other pts/ags snapshots.
Is my understanding correct?

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 01:33:06 PM »

In short, the snapshot on 28th feb will be used for bitshares xt, and bitshares xt snapshots will be used for other bitshares chains.
 And other dacs will use other pts/ags snapshots.
Is my understanding correct?

Yea


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Online Brekyrself

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 06:42:38 PM »
Can't wait to see the 12 day roller coaster ride for PTS, when this news comes out.

I do not think anyone will sell until after the snapshot has been taken...  After the snapshot it could be a free fall until we get closer to future products honoring pts directly.

Offline o3u

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 06:58:27 PM »
Can't wait to see the 12 day roller coaster ride for PTS, when this news comes out.

I do not think anyone will sell until after the snapshot has been taken...  After the snapshot it could be a free fall until we get closer to future products honoring pts directly.


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Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 07:39:58 PM »
Can't wait to see the 12 day roller coaster ride for PTS, when this news comes out.

I do not think anyone will sell until after the snapshot has been taken...  After the snapshot it could be a free fall until we get closer to future products honoring pts directly.

The price of AGS will go through the roof from now until 02/28.  Get 3.5X BTS.  :-\

 

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