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Offline Whiskeylake

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So I want to get as much Bitshare X as possible obviously like anyone else, but how do one go about doing that?

Buy PTS ? Buy AGS? And what about the donations, how does that work?

This is so fucking confusing and I'm experiencedin the crypto world, yet this is just puzzling.

Offline dirktadwater

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2014, 09:40:15 AM »
I agree, I own PTS, was under the impression only PTS would convert to bitshares. I guess they threw in another blockchain (Bitshares AGS), thereby halving the PTS value distribution.

Offline pgbit

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2014, 10:05:28 AM »
AGS has, I think, helped the value of PTS very positively, as AGS are being issued in addition, plus you can get AGS with PTS so this has increased the scarcity of PTS. PTS holders havent lost anything percentage wise as I understand it, its just Invictus have launched the AGS fundraising system as an alternative way to acquire bitshares. Just take a look at what has been raised, and you will see the additional confidence in the market now, especially over the last few days.


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Offline Markus

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2014, 12:48:23 PM »
50 % of all BTSX will be given to all PTS holders. This is narrowing the first promise of at least 10 %.
The other 50 % of all BTSX will be give to all AGS holders.

AGS is not a blockchain nor is it tradeable.
You can gain AGS by donating to the Angel addresses.
You can donate using either PTS or BTC.
The donations of one calendar day (GMT) compete for 10000 AGS.
The amount of AGS you receive will be (5000 * your BTC donation / total daily BTC donations) + (5000 * your PTS donation / total daily PTS donations)

1 AGS will give you 3.333333… BTSX.
1 PTS will give you roughly 1.3 BTSX.

Currently the way to get most BTSX per dollar is through AGS.



Online oco101

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2014, 01:49:25 PM »
I agree, I own PTS, was under the impression only PTS would convert to bitshares. I guess they threw in another blockchain (Bitshares AGS), thereby halving the PTS value distribution.

Actually, you where suppose to get 1:1 BTSX NOW you get 1.3 BTSX so better deal. Also there are only 4 million BTSX not 21 million BTSX so even better deal on you PTS.
All AGS founds will be used to develop the DAC ecosystem. Have a DAC idea ? Well now there are funds for that.
Could be confusing I agree but I think taking the time to understand it will pay dividends.

Offline Whiskeylake

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2014, 02:25:31 PM »
I agree, I own PTS, was under the impression only PTS would convert to bitshares. I guess they threw in another blockchain (Bitshares AGS), thereby halving the PTS value distribution.

Actually, you where suppose to get 1:1 BTSX NOW you get 1.3 BTSX so better deal. Also there are only 4 million BTSX not 21 million BTSX so even better deal on you PTS.
All AGS founds will be used to develop the DAC ecosystem. Have a DAC idea ? Well now there are funds for that.
Could be confusing I agree but I think taking the time to understand it will pay dividends.

PTS'ers get to keep their PTS and sell/use it later on. What about AGS guys?

Online oco101

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2014, 02:41:13 PM »
I agree, I own PTS, was under the impression only PTS would convert to bitshares. I guess they threw in another blockchain (Bitshares AGS), thereby halving the PTS value distribution.

Actually, you where suppose to get 1:1 BTSX NOW you get 1.3 BTSX so better deal. Also there are only 4 million BTSX not 21 million BTSX so even better deal on you PTS.
All AGS founds will be used to develop the DAC ecosystem. Have a DAC idea ? Well now there are funds for that.
Could be confusing I agree but I think taking the time to understand it will pay dividends.

PTS'ers get to keep their PTS and sell/use it later on. What about AGS guys?
AGS are not liquid so you can't sell them, but you can always sell the share from the DAC's that are created. Like BTSX nobody stops you to sell all the BTSX share that you have. And on the future DAC  you'll got a minimum 10% share allocated for AGS holders. So more share for you.
So basically  you sell the golden egg not the golden goose.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2014, 03:11:55 PM »
PTS'ers get to keep their PTS and sell/use it later on. What about AGS guys?

As said above, AGS guys get to use their AGS again later on, but they don't get to sell it.

You could, in theory, sell the private keys to your wallet to someone - thus selling all future proceeds from AGS. But there are so many ways that can go wrong (socially, not technically).
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 03:22:26 PM »
I've heard multiple people say it was better to eliminate mining and add angelshares because that "makes the deal better for PTS holders"  but really that's a bunch of garbage.

Before if you wanted to get Bitshares you could do it one of two ways - Acquire Protoshares or Mine Bitshares when it came out.   That meant anyone not wanting to mine or risk buying at post-launch market prices had to buy Protoshares, it was the only way.

Of course, Invictus didn't make any money off of that and so here comes Angelshares and the new deal where now instead of 10% of BTS going to PTS holders and 90% being mined over a number of years, it would be 50% with the other 50% going towards Angelshares holders.    This makes sense for Invictus because now they have money pouring in, but for PTS holders?  It means that your exclusivity is not only gone but so is any advantage you had.  Since 100% of the money supply is out day one you'll have immediately depressed prices as people sell to recapitalize some of their gains in Bitcoin or move out entirely as they see the financial opportunity having passed. 

Again, this is fine for Invictus, they got the funds and aren't much impacted except being able to buy more of the cheap BTS themselves.  It does however make one wonder why it was even worth buying or acquiring PTS since a) BTS will be available cheaply due to over supply and b) PTS is the WORST way to vest yourselves with Bitshares because of the math at work.   On February 28th Protoshares holders will get 1-1.5 Bitshares per PTS.  On February 28th Angelshares holders will get 3-4 Bitshares per AGS.   They both "cost" the same, but the more people who go into angelshares per day the worse the deal is for all of them.  Protoshares holders have the option of getting the worst return on investment available or giving their money to invictus and competing with everybody else for the remaining AGS before none of this matters any more.

When the deal gets better for someone, it gets worse for someone else.   I continue to be disappointed by the inability to acknowledge that.
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Offline toast

Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2014, 03:57:40 PM »
When the deal gets better for someone, it gets worse for someone else.   I continue to be disappointed by the inability to acknowledge that.

The people for whom the deal got worse is *people who were holding PTS for speculative value*, NOT people who were holding for shares in I3's DACs. The original deal was better for people wanting to sell PTS right before snapshot or sell BTS right after launch, but worse for someone who thought I3's DACs would become successful and wanted to maximize returns from this prediction.

If you bought PTS to invest in BTS and then stopped following along, you'll notice your PTS now award a much higher share than before. Nice investment!
If you bought PTS to invest in BTS and *have* been following along, the above is still true you had the chance to get cheap AGS for like a month.

You have one good point I think, and that's that I3 changed their promise at all. It costs some credibility, but I thought it was worth it.

I feel like I'm in the same situation as you (bought PTS before the big changes) but from my perspective the deal has been getting sweeter and sweeter.
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Offline CLains

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2014, 05:23:34 PM »
When the deal gets better for someone, it gets worse for someone else. 

If I have a company and people pay for computer hardware, electricity, malware developers, mining pools, cost of acquiring and putting setting everything up, etc. to get a share in my company then the only winner is the third party services. Why? Because the money going into these services do not add any value. Why do they not add value? Because the type of security that they help provide can be replaced with a type of security that costs nothing.

With the introduction of AGS, PTS holders could add value to the company directly by investing in AGS. Now suddenly Invictus is a first-mover in the realm of acquiring serious funding. With the old PTS model Invictus was backed by a tiny team of coders with a few dollars up their sleeve. With AGS we're now sitting on PTS backed by a growing team of coders with millions of dollars to spend on development, legal issues, promotion, etc.

If you don't think Bitshares will be worth anything, then just sell some PTS now (they're as high as BTC was at 1000+), and then buy them back after the snapshot. Or use the money to buy Bitshares after launch. From an investor perspective the ROI is off the charts every way.

You may have a point if you discuss promises, etc. but that's another discussion. As far as ROI goes I don't see how PTS holders are losing out. Their company were the first to replace a ridiculous business model with an ingenious and profitable one. We'll see in a few months time though.. This is a rapidly evolving field and everybody will constantly be making mistakes.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 05:26:05 PM by CLains »
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2014, 05:39:12 PM »
If you listened to Invictus up until the middle of December and did what they asked, acquiring PTS by mining or buying them, you are the biggest loser of Invictus investors.  You say the deal got better because you're looking at this numerically.  I think the deal got worse because I look at it comparatively.   

In December holding PTS meant you were in the most advantageous position to receive Bitshares.   Now your position is not even 1/3rd as valuable as the position of someone holding angelshares, which cost about the same as PTS.     This is confusing, has been poorly announced, I still have yet to see a blog where people who don't sit on forums can actually understand whats going on.   

There are TONS of projects out there people focus time, when you have a project like Bitshares that is under medium-long term development, many people will not look for a month or more waiting until they hear "news" that gives them a reason to check their stake.     Anyone doing that with Bitshares will find they missed an opportunity.      I'm trying to help get the word out, Daniel and Charles Evans wrote an editorial we just published at LTB but even that article does not explain the ACTUAL situation, which really annoys me even further.

They talk about lots of use cases that are far in the future, but unless I misunderstood the post last week about the Bitshares snapshot and launch, I believe future invictus chains will derive from BITSHARES which were derived from PROTOSHARES rather than BITSHARES being derived from PROTOSHARES and then PROTOSHAREs continuing to derive future chains for its holders.    Did I misunderstand this?   Did this change?  If it did, thats a BIG DEAL because it means you're an idiot if you hold protoshares rather than maximizing your bitshares.
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Offline toast

Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 05:45:52 PM »
I believe future invictus chains will derive from BITSHARES which were derived from PROTOSHARES rather than BITSHARES being derived from PROTOSHARES and then PROTOSHAREs continuing to derive future chains for its holders.    Did I misunderstand this?   Did this change?  If it did, thats a BIG DEAL because it means you're an idiot if you hold protoshares rather than maximizing your bitshares.

Only other BitShares X chains will be derived from BitShares XT. These are all the assets-backed-by-prediction-market variations, like with interest or different consensus algo or other small feature set change experiments.
Other invictus chains will be derived from AGS/PTS still. Not 100% sure but I imagine something like DomainShares would not be derived from BTS XT.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 05:51:59 PM »
When the deal gets better for someone, it gets worse for someone else. 

If I have a company and people pay for computer hardware, electricity, malware developers, mining pools, cost of acquiring and putting setting everything up, etc. to get a share in my company then the only winner is the third party services. Why? Because the money going into these services do not add any value. Why do they not add value? Because the type of security that they help provide can be replaced with a type of security that costs nothing.

With the introduction of AGS, PTS holders could add value to the company directly by investing in AGS. Now suddenly Invictus is a first-mover in the realm of acquiring serious funding. With the old PTS model Invictus was backed by a tiny team of coders with a few dollars up their sleeve. With AGS we're now sitting on PTS backed by a growing team of coders with millions of dollars to spend on development, legal issues, promotion, etc.

If you don't think Bitshares will be worth anything, then just sell some PTS now (they're as high as BTC was at 1000+), and then buy them back after the snapshot. Or use the money to buy Bitshares after launch. From an investor perspective the ROI is off the charts every way.

You may have a point if you discuss promises, etc. but that's another discussion. As far as ROI goes I don't see how PTS holders are losing out. Their company were the first to replace a ridiculous business model with an ingenious and profitable one. We'll see in a few months time though.. This is a rapidly evolving field and everybody will constantly be making mistakes.

Things do change very fast, which is why it's so important to set up a deal that has room to manuever.  When Invictus jumped from 90% mined to 100% premined, did they leave themselves any room?  I don't think they did.  When AGS was first proposed I argued that while it was OK to devote 10% of Bitshares to AGS, it was crazy to completely remove mining because the deal had involved 90% of Bitshares being distributed through non-monetary means whereas now it was 100% monetary to buy in.

Invictus definitely wins, but everybody else?  Depends on how much you're paying attention.   Was that the deal people signed on for?  That they acquire the coins and then have to read the forums weekly to see when the deal changes so they can quickly respond before other people have an opportunity to protect themselves?   Change is the enemy, and the visible cost is the tip of the iceberg.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 05:53:29 PM »
I believe future invictus chains will derive from BITSHARES which were derived from PROTOSHARES rather than BITSHARES being derived from PROTOSHARES and then PROTOSHAREs continuing to derive future chains for its holders.    Did I misunderstand this?   Did this change?  If it did, thats a BIG DEAL because it means you're an idiot if you hold protoshares rather than maximizing your bitshares.

Only other BitShares X chains will be derived from BitShares XT. These are all the assets-backed-by-prediction-market variations, like with interest or different consensus algo or other small feature set change experiments.
Other invictus chains will be derived from AGS/PTS still. Not 100% sure but I imagine something like DomainShares would not be derived from BTS XT.

My point exactly.   We are six days from the snapshot and even you, who are on the forums every day and posting in most forums do not really know whats going on with regards to future allocations.   That uncertainty makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a fair price to be established.  This is a joke.
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