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Offline magius

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Redesigning society through DAC
« on: March 23, 2014, 01:55:28 PM »

Hello,
I'm magius from Rome, Italy. I start this my first contribute to this forum citing bytemaster:

Imagine a world where justice, defense, dispute resolution, medical, retirement, charity can all be provided at the highest quality, lowest cost, with out the need to resort to impose a double standard between the 'ruled' and the 'rulers'?    A double standard that says the two may be held to different moral standards. 

I set out to invent the solutions to these problems rather than simply accept that the only way to have justice for some is to cause an injustice for others.  Create a DAC that causes selfish motives to align with your desired global outcome and does not depend upon force to do so.   

About ten years ago, during the Argentine collapse, an italian group developped a project to address economic development and social justice both. The project was called FAZ, Financial Autonomous Zone. Here you can find an abstract in english: http://www.faz.im/english

After ten years we wish to go a step further. Our system born as "analogic", but - IMHO starting from Bitshares approach - we think is possible to make it "digital".

Basicly our goal is to make something similar to a DAC that can issue a demurrage based currency on investments, to fund everyone who ask for funds to create wealth and to issue it to redistribute wealth to all community members through a basic income. Our goal is to create a currency that cannot be accumulated (store of value) but only spent (mean of exchange).

On May 30 we'll held an international meeting about our project in Italy. In the meantime we wish to start a collaborative international group of economists and coders to try to make a cryptocurrency with these features.

Your help is needed.

magius   
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 02:22:56 PM by magius »

Offline muse-umum

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2014, 02:26:04 PM »
Ciao magius,

Good luck !

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2014, 04:12:20 PM »
Hello,
I'm magius from Rome, Italy. I start this my first contribute to this forum citing bytemaster:

Imagine a world where justice, defense, dispute resolution, medical, retirement, charity can all be provided at the highest quality, lowest cost, with out the need to resort to impose a double standard between the 'ruled' and the 'rulers'?    A double standard that says the two may be held to different moral standards. 

I set out to invent the solutions to these problems rather than simply accept that the only way to have justice for some is to cause an injustice for others.  Create a DAC that causes selfish motives to align with your desired global outcome and does not depend upon force to do so.   

About ten years ago, during the Argentine collapse, an italian group developped a project to address economic development and social justice both. The project was called FAZ, Financial Autonomous Zone. Here you can find an abstract in english: http://www.faz.im/english

After ten years we wish to go a step further. Our system born as "analogic", but - IMHO starting from Bitshares approach - we think is possible to make it "digital".

Basicly our goal is to make something similar to a DAC that can issue a demurrage based currency on investments, to fund everyone who ask for funds to create wealth and to issue it to redistribute wealth to all community members through a basic income. Our goal is to create a currency that cannot be accumulated (store of value) but only spent (mean of exchange).

On May 30 we'll held an international meeting about our project in Italy. In the meantime we wish to start a collaborative international group of economists and coders to try to make a cryptocurrency with these features.

Your help is needed.

magius

You sould take a look at Freicoin.

Offline magius

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2014, 07:35:59 PM »
You sould take a look at Freicoin.

We know Freicoin and we also know Diner.
Diner is the latest *coin with demurrage and.. also basic income.

But Bitshares is more!

We wish to make a decentralized banking system that works as a..National Central Bank, with his monetary politics. We think that money has not to be speculative as Bitcoin is, but to be issued ONLY on investments. Backed by wealth creation of material and immaterial goods and services. Only if you create wealth, then you can redistribute with basic income. And cause to money issuance, in our approach, is applied a sort of tax (demurrage), basicly reducing progressively the monetary mass, we have an  plentiful currency. Plenty means there's sufficient money to invest in creating wealth and to redistribute it in a virtuous keynesian circle. In which basic income also support demand, and is not only a cost for community.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 07:43:18 PM by magius »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2014, 07:50:20 PM »
You sould take a look at Freicoin.

We know Freicoin and we also know Diner.
Diner is the latest *coin with demurrage and.. also basic income.

But Bitshares is more!

We wish to make a decentralized banking system that works as a..National Central Bank, with his monetary politics. We think that money has not to be speculative as Bitcoin is, but to be issued ONLY on investments. Backed by wealth creation of material and immaterial goods and services. Only if you create wealth, then you can redistribute with basic income. And cause to money issuance, in our approach, is applied a sort of tax (demurrage), basicly reducing progressively the monetary mass, we have an  plentiful currency. Plenty means there's sufficient money to invest in creating wealth and to redistribute it in a virtuous keynesian circle. In which basic income also support demand, and is not only a cost for community.

I like your appraoch. But how do you want to forbid anyone to store value in a non demurrage currency?

Offline magius

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2014, 09:55:39 PM »
I like your appraoch. But how do you want to forbid anyone to store value in a non demurrage currency?

There's no way. You can incentive the use of a demurraged currency only through basic income. In a Bitcoin model, you earn money through mining, in our with basic income. The big difference is that in ours is for all. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:59:19 PM by magius »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2014, 10:00:48 PM »
You would need to convince a state to issue this currency as the currency the states wants it's taxes paid in...

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 10:10:14 PM »
I don't understand how you redesign society.

You want to tax everybody to give money to everybody, that's already what happens in the society where we live.

Offline magius

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 11:13:28 PM »
I don't understand how you redesign society.

You want to tax everybody to give money to everybody, that's already what happens in the society where we live.

It's a simplicistic approach. Demurrage do not tax income but currency itself. If united with basic income is a way to conceive a different world in which money is not a god.

Offline magius

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Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 11:15:29 PM »
You would need to convince a state to issue this currency as the currency the states wants it's taxes paid in...

I believe is a currency to give autonomy to free communities instead of States.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2014, 12:54:52 AM »
I don't understand how you redesign society.

You want to tax everybody to give money to everybody, that's already what happens in the society where we live.

It's a simplicistic approach. Demurrage do not tax income but currency itself. If united with basic income is a way to conceive a different world in which money is not a god.

Unfortunately, this is like using a DAC to conceive a different world in which there is no gravity.   You need to work with economic laws and not against them.  In your case you are inventing a system where you expect two things at once:

1) Everyone to value a particular currency so that it can be used to purchase goods.
2) People to hold on to this currency while value is redistributed to others. 

The first thing every actor would do is sell their currency for an asset with a positive return rather than a negative return.  THey would never buy it and its value would quickly fall to 0. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline toast

Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2014, 12:55:48 AM »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline luckybit

Re: Redesigning society through DAC
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 09:15:45 AM »
I don't understand how you redesign society.

You want to tax everybody to give money to everybody, that's already what happens in the society where we live.

It's a simplicistic approach. Demurrage do not tax income but currency itself. If united with basic income is a way to conceive a different world in which money is not a god.

Unfortunately, this is like using a DAC to conceive a different world in which there is no gravity.   You need to work with economic laws and not against them.  In your case you are inventing a system where you expect two things at once:

1) Everyone to value a particular currency so that it can be used to purchase goods.
2) People to hold on to this currency while value is redistributed to others. 

The first thing every actor would do is sell their currency for an asset with a positive return rather than a negative return.  THey would never buy it and its value would quickly fall to 0.

The only way it could work is if people are willing to work to earn the local currency. No one is going to buy it if it offers a worse deal than the national currency.
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