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Offline bytemaster

Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: March 28, 2014, 05:35:05 AM »

Assumptions:
With the shares system we have an easy way to vote on anything.
With the TaPOS system the transaction ledger becomes immutable automatically over time as the ledger is confirmed by everyone on the network.
Generating the next block should be as efficient as possible to maximize dividends.
Transaction validation should be as quick as possible.

Solution:
Shareholders vote (off chain) on a trustee.
Trustee generates blocks every 30 seconds (or at will..... no need to require any particular rate)
If trustee is compromised or shutdown, shareholders can elect a new trustee by broadcasting their vote.
Once a new trustee has 51% of the shareholders support the network continues.

As a trustee you cannot double spend (you will be caught and fired).
As a trustee you cannot perform Denial of Service without being caught and fired.
As a trustee you cannot be coerced without being let go.

As a shareholder this maximizes your value (dividends, transaction speed, no potential of forks).

A trustee is not a paid position and requires almost no resources to run.  A trustee could even operate behind a tor node.

The result is like a 'constitutional company' where the laws are entirely defined in the constitution and the 'president' can be recalled at any time and has almost no power even when in office.

This same process can be used to resolve when a hard fork goes into effect.   

Thoughts?
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 07:40:40 AM »
Quote
Shareholders vote (off chain) on a trustee.
If trustee is compromised or shutdown, shareholders can elect a new trustee by broadcasting their vote.
Why offchain? Why not onchain much like memorycoin is doing it?
Quote
Once a new trustee has 51% of the shareholders support the network continues.
What if you have 3 parties with ~33% each? What if there is _no_ consensus?

Personally I like the benefits .. but i dislike having one note generating the blocks ..
What about passing the trustee-ticket around after each block .. much like nxt's transparent forging?

Quote
The result is like a 'constitutional company' where the laws are entirely defined in the constitution and the 'president' can be recalled at any time and has almost no power even when in office
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Offline svk

Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 09:15:58 AM »
The benefits do appear to be considerable, but I'm not sure how exactly this is supposed to work. I'm fairly new to all this, but here are some of the questions that come to my mind after reading this:

You say running a "trustee" requires no resources and is a non-paid position, does that mean anyone can do this from their personal computer?

Or will this become a centralized function with only a couple major trustees?

Is the voting something that is done automatically by our respective clients, or manually? If so, how do we determine whether a trustee is honest or not?

One of the things that've attracted me to Bitshares is that you generally explain very clearly what are the incentives for being part of the system, for mining/staking or whatever it is, but here I don't see the incentive for running a trustee besides the obvious "good of the system"..

 
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Offline Schwede65

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 10:28:58 AM »
Assumptions:
With the shares system we have an easy way to vote on anything.
With the TaPOS system the transaction ledger becomes immutable automatically over time as the ledger is confirmed by everyone on the network.
Generating the next block should be as efficient as possible to maximize dividends.
Transaction validation should be as quick as possible.

Solution:
Shareholders vote (off chain) on a trustee.
Trustee generates blocks every 30 seconds (or at will..... no need to require any particular rate)
If trustee is compromised or shutdown, shareholders can elect a new trustee by broadcasting their vote.
Once a new trustee has 51% of the shareholders support the network continues.

As a trustee you cannot double spend (you will be caught and fired).
As a trustee you cannot perform Denial of Service without being caught and fired.
As a trustee you cannot be coerced without being let go.

As a shareholder this maximizes your value (dividends, transaction speed, no potential of forks).

A trustee is not a paid position and requires almost no resources to run.  A trustee could even operate behind a tor node.

The result is like a 'constitutional company' where the laws are entirely defined in the constitution and the 'president' can be recalled at any time and has almost no power even when in office.

This same process can be used to resolve when a hard fork goes into effect.   

Thoughts?

this "trustee" is only one PC/IP?

why not having more of them and let them - 3, 5, 7 or 9 PCs - work together to share the multiple risks of running only one

as an example: the master-trustee is only doing the sequence of the transactions of the network
this master has to be back-upped by two silent master-trustees - second and third, who are going to work when the first master does not work anymore

after the correct order of the transactions the "slave"-trustees are finishing the transactions by generating the blocks into the chain

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 11:02:15 AM »
Based on what would voters decide the on the trustee(s)? If real world identity is not revealed their is not much fundamentals which you can base your vote on. If real world identity is revealed there is the danger of trustee shut-down.

There would also be more potential for corruption than with NXT, because a briber would have time to approach the trustee. I don't know how long in advance the next one to find a block is known with NXT but the short time window would make it very unlikely to get a deal going...     

Was there a solution for 'who finds the next block' with TaPOS other than this one up to now?

Side note: Maybe different types of TaPOS / POS should be considered for different applications. Some applications (Lotto, Me, Music etc.) might need more efficiency, some might need more trustlessness/no central point of failure.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 04:11:01 PM by delulo »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 12:21:09 PM »
Here is another proposal (not sure if this would work):

Every stakeholder locks in a vote for a trustee which can be changed at any time. The chance for finding the next block is random but depends on a mix of your stake size and your trust rating you got from others. This could be combined with a ripple consensus: As far as I know with ripple there is a list of trusted nodes who vote on which transactions are included in the next block. Here such a list would be all stakeholders that turned (that turned mining/forging on) but the "weight" of your vote depends on your stake size and your trust rating. 

Wasn't a combination of ripple style consensus and POS considered before?

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 02:23:51 PM »
Does Tapos plus pow not work?

clout

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 02:25:38 PM »
What happened to the ideology that everything that can be decentralized will be decentralized?

Offline xeroc

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 02:26:37 PM »
Side note: Maybe different types of TaPOS / POS should be considered for different applications. Some applications (Lotto, Me, Music etc.) might need more efficiency, some might need more trustlessness/no central point of failure.
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2014, 02:33:38 PM »
What's the concern to post this solution, is it to solve efficiency and performance?
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Offline wasthatawolf

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 02:55:57 PM »
This might be too much to ask for common shareholders.  I don't really want to have to worry about trusting someone even if they will eventually get fired if they double spend.  Isn't this defeating the whole purpose of a decentralized system?

clout

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 03:09:48 PM »
Maybe I don't get the difference between security and block production, but I don't understand why whatever node with the most cdd can't produce the next block. Or make it a more ambiguous standard for block production that may not be probabilisticly determined. Which ever node has the median cdd in broadcasted set of transactions produces the next block. Or would it even matter if this was randomly determined out of those destroying coin days at given time?

Offline jae208

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 03:15:54 PM »
IMO we probably shouldn't be trying to prevent every single possible inefficiency. The law of diminishing returns kicks in. There is no way to engineer anything into perfection. Sometimes you just have to release something into the wild and see what happens. Also, computer hardware is increasing at an exponential rate, the recent slash of Google drive storage prices shows this, what I mean is that every year that goes by we have more storage capabilities at a cheaper price so having something akin to a full Bitcoin node storing say 30 GB of information is not an issue in the longterm. As internet speeds are getting faster as well as storage speeds. Google fiber gives you 1,024 Mega Bits per second and only costs $70 and it will be deployed to more cities here soon.
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Offline NewMine

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 03:21:05 PM »
There is always a window of opportunity before one gets fired. How much damage can be done before one gets fired?  Firing someone is reactive.


51% is too much. See MemoryCoin. They could only get 5% to participate in voting.

Whoever gets that position "could" take advantage and do damage before 51% rally to correct it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 04:40:32 PM by newmine »

Offline oco101

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Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 03:26:02 PM »
If Bitshares x could reach that kind of speed for validating transaction will be amazing and it is worth taking in consideration.
 
The problems I see :

- No more decentralized
- One trustee one point of failure, the DDOS attack will be hard to prevent 

Quote
If trustee is compromised or shutdown, shareholders can elect a new trustee by broadcasting their vote.
Once a new trustee has 51% of the shareholders support the network continues.

Not clear. How long it takes the voting process , meanwhile all transactions are stooped ?  Can you elaborate more on the voting process ?

 

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