Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO  (Read 1009 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.


Offline liondani

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 08:42:21 PM »
http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/bitcoin-association-to-become-decentralized/

" Bitcoin Association will become a decentralized autonomous organization as soon as possible.   Since we truly believe in the power of Bitcoin and in decentralized applications and organizations, it is clear that we should also be one."

" For all areas technically possible, the platform we prefer to build this will be Etherium."
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2014, 08:54:59 PM »
http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/bitcoin-association-to-become-decentralized/

Do you think III should become a member?

 I wonder if they had any objective  criteria for choosing Etherium as the platform (other than that the founder of Bitcoin Alliance is also a founder of Etheriuum).

Offline luckybit

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2014, 10:23:27 PM »
http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/bitcoin-association-to-become-decentralized/

To be fair, Ethereum is better at doing certain things technically. Bitshares isn't designed in a way which is as flexible so for this purpose I would actually recommend that certain aspects of the organization be on the Ethereum platform. But for specialized purposes I would recommend Bitshares.

I think Ethereum isn't going to be good for everything but it's finding it's niche in math based law. I think the niche for Bitshares is decentralized businesses or DACs. DACs and DAOs are not the same and don't have the same needs. DAO's need to be able to act more like a government or make decisions while DACs merely need to profit.

I could be wrong, maybe Bytemaster can correct me if I made some mistakes on my understanding.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 10:26:28 PM by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline luckybit

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 10:28:09 PM »
http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/bitcoin-association-to-become-decentralized/

Do you think III should become a member?

 I wonder if they had any objective  criteria for choosing Etherium as the platform (other than that the founder of Bitcoin Alliance is also a founder of Etheriuum).

Not only should III become a member but I think if it's possible to do so, an airdrop should be organized for the Bitcoin association so that the membership can benefit along with the Bitshares community. This sort of strategic alliance is important because Ethereum should not be competitors.

https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1720
    • View Profile
Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 08:47:40 AM »
Can someone please explain what are the benefits of Bitshares against Ethereum especially if Bitcoin association becomes a DAO? Why someone would value more Bitshares than Ethereum now?

Bitshares will be a decentralised bank. But now with this DAO, Bitcoin and every alt coin will be also truly decentralised. Everyone can issue a coin there and be a bank. I know that I am missing something so please explain to a non tech guy the differences and the benefits...

Offline luckybit

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 09:08:48 AM »
Can someone please explain what are the benefits of Bitshares against Ethereum especially if Bitcoin association becomes a DAO? Why someone would value more Bitshares than Ethereum now?

Bitshares will be a decentralised bank. But now with this DAO, Bitcoin and every alt coin will be also truly decentralised. Everyone can issue a coin there and be a bank. I know that I am missing something so please explain to a non tech guy the differences and the benefits...

If everyone involved with the Bitcoin association also owns shares in future Invictus DACs then the technology will decide. But an association isn't the same as a business. Bitshares technology can help you make self contained businesses but if you want to form a government with smart contracts then Ethereum makes more sense.

Bitshares is more for a store of welfare or for focusing on profit. Ethereum isn't about being profitable so it's not as good from a business end. If you're a government or trade association maybe you don't care as much about being profitable.

Ethereum and Bitshares are not in competition.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:13:21 AM by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1720
    • View Profile
Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 09:26:47 AM »
Thank you Luckybit.

A couple of questions:

1) Why would someone buy Ethers if they don't expect to make money? Presumably because most people want to use it so more valuable and therefore essentially it is a "profitable business end"

2) Is Ethereum competitor to Bitshares ME or irrelevant?

Thanks again for the clarifications.


Offline luckybit

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »
Thank you Luckybit.

A couple of questions:

1) Why would someone buy Ethers if they don't expect to make money? Presumably because most people want to use it so more valuable and therefore essentially it is a "profitable business end"

2) Is Ethereum competitor to Bitshares ME or irrelevant?

Thanks again for the clarifications.

1. The last I remember they were making Ethereum hyper inflationary and concerned about centralization of power. For this reason I would say as an investor to stay away from the crowd funding aspect as it might not be as cost efficient for you as mining it. It all depends on how they roll out. If they intend to treat Ethers more like a credit currency where you are buying some token to act as a credit for using the services on the network then it will have value but because it's inflationary the value it has will decrease over time giving you no advantage to buying it and saving it. If they treat it as a stock then you would want to buy and save it. I wouldn't have launched the token the way I hear them talking about doing it, I would just forget mining altogether and release the tokens as tokens of credit which expire after a certain date and let the expiration date prevent hoarding while promoting spending.

2. Ethereum is not a competitor to Bitshares Me. While I'm not entirely sure what Bitshares Me is going to be yet, I don't think there is a lot of benefit to Proof of Work mining anymore because it is proven to be centralizing. I think if Proof of Work remains it has to be some beneficial form which provides a social incentive for something rather than what we have now. Ethereum in my opinion is best designed for decentralized autonomous organizations and if I wanted to write my charter, my principles, my constitution into sourcecode, I would definitely choose Ethereum as their niche is digital law and smart contracts.

But if I want a profitable business which isn't requiring complex contracts, conditional rules, and other mechanisms, I would go with Bitshares as it's a lot easier to roll out a blockchain like Bitshares than to have to deal with the risks and challenges of doing it over Ethereum.

For example if I'm trying to set up a social corporation (or a for profit charity) I would choose Bitshares. If I'm trying to set up a decentralized bank and exchange I would choose Bitshares. If I'm trying to do anything which is designed to bring profit to shareholders and be run as a profitable business I would use Bitshares.

One thing I respect about Dan(Bytemaster) is he has an understanding of the present and has the right attitude to survive in the present. Ethereum's technology is great but they are talking as if we already live in a post-capitalist/post-scarcity world where people don't have to work anymore, don't need jobs, and so on. So I see Dan's thinking as more practical while I see Ethereum as the idealists of the decentralization community.

The problem with idealism is it ignores the current conditions society is in while focusing on building utopia. In the current society we live in, to live costs money, which means profit has to be generated not just for our automated businesses but so we the human beings can live, pay our rent, eat and sleep well.

I often see a strange criticism which says if you're trying to do something good for the world that you shouldn't care about making money. Then how exactly are you supposed to spend much time doing something good for the world? How is your charity organization supposed to last if everyone is a volunteer and no one can pay their rent? If everyone has to work a day job and volunteer on the side then you don't get nearly as much done compared to if everyone worked for a social corporation as the day job.

So I agree with Bytemaster that "social entrepreneurship" should be as profitable as "selfish entrepreneurship" and it makes no sense to me why it should be a requirement to hate making money (and capitalism) to use capitalism to better the world. Maybe if people could make money doing it more people would want to do it.

So I think Ethereum is betting on post scarcity, I don't see how a social entrepreneur could make a profit under their scheme. I don't see how investors could make a profit under their scheme. I do see how miners could make a profit, but when you bring in the miners you bring in politics.

I view Ethereum currently as a sort of Not for Profit, and the technology is awesome. For certain situations I will use it and recommend it. But I don't see us quitting our jobs and supporting our living expenses by owning DACs running on Ethereum.

I do see that possibility with Bitshares.
 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:48:55 PM by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline bytemaster

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 11:43:28 PM »
We can make ethereum profitable if they don't. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 12:08:44 AM by Stan »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1720
    • View Profile
Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 09:15:19 AM »
Thank you very much for the detailed response:
Quote
1. The last I remember they were making Ethereum hyper inflationary and concerned about centralization of power. For this reason I would say as an investor to stay away from the crowd funding aspect as it might not be as cost efficient for you as mining it. It all depends on how they roll out. If they intend to treat Ethers more like a credit currency where you are buying some token to act as a credit for using the services on the network then it will have value but because it's inflationary the value it has will decrease over time giving you no advantage to buying it and saving it. If they treat it as a stock then you would want to buy and save it. I wouldn't have launched the token the way I hear them talking about doing it, I would just forget mining altogether and release the tokens as tokens of credit which expire after a certain date and let the expiration date prevent hoarding while promoting spending.

2. Ethereum is not a competitor to Bitshares Me. While I'm not entirely sure what Bitshares Me is going to be yet, I don't think there is a lot of benefit to Proof of Work mining anymore because it is proven to be centralizing. I think if Proof of Work remains it has to be some beneficial form which provides a social incentive for something rather than what we have now. Ethereum in my opinion is best designed for decentralized autonomous organizations and if I wanted to write my charter, my principles, my constitution into sourcecode, I would definitely choose Ethereum as their niche is digital law and smart contracts.

But if I want a profitable business which isn't requiring complex contracts, conditional rules, and other mechanisms, I would go with Bitshares as it's a lot easier to roll out a blockchain like Bitshares than to have to deal with the risks and challenges of doing it over Ethereum.

For example if I'm trying to set up a social corporation (or a for profit charity) I would choose Bitshares. If I'm trying to set up a decentralized bank and exchange I would choose Bitshares. If I'm trying to do anything which is designed to bring profit to shareholders and be run as a profitable business I would use Bitshares.

One thing I respect about Dan(Bytemaster) is he has an understanding of the present and has the right attitude to survive in the present. Ethereum's technology is great but they are talking as if we already live in a post-capitalist/post-scarcity world where people don't have to work anymore, don't need jobs, and so on. So I see Dan's thinking as more practical while I see Ethereum as the idealists of the decentralization community.

The problem with idealism is it ignores the current conditions society is in while focusing on building utopia. In the current society we live in, to live costs money, which means profit has to be generated not just for our automated businesses but so we the human beings can live, pay our rent, eat and sleep well.

I often see a strange criticism which says if you're trying to do something good for the world that you shouldn't care about making money. Then how exactly are you supposed to spend much time doing something good for the world? How is your charity organization supposed to last if everyone is a volunteer and no one can pay their rent? If everyone has to work a day job and volunteer on the side then you don't get nearly as much done compared to if everyone worked for a social corporation as the day job.

So I agree with Bytemaster that "social entrepreneurship" should be as profitable as "selfish entrepreneurship" and it makes no sense to me why it should be a requirement to hate making money (and capitalism) to use capitalism to better the world. Maybe if people could make money doing it more people would want to do it.

So I think Ethereum is betting on post scarcity, I don't see how a social entrepreneur could make a profit under their scheme. I don't see how investors could make a profit under their scheme. I do see how miners could make a profit, but when you bring in the miners you bring in politics.

I view Ethereum currently as a sort of Not for Profit, and the technology is awesome. For certain situations I will use it and recommend it. But I don't see us quitting our jobs and supporting our living expenses by owning DACs running on Ethereum.

I do see that possibility with Bitshares.
 

That was certainly reassuring that I am on the right team... :)

Offline CWEvans

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
    • View Profile
Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2014, 01:19:18 PM »
It is hard to tell what the purpose of this organization is, and the founder biographies are a bit vague.


Offline luckybit

Re: Bitcoin Association to Become Decentralized DAO
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 03:59:39 AM »
It is hard to tell what the purpose of this organization is, and the founder biographies are a bit vague.
http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/
Quote
Bitcoin Association is a not-for-profit group focused on increasing adoption of Bitcoin and related technologies through education and engagement with citizens, media and regulators.
We believe this technology may be transformative and disruptive with potential to help create jobs, drive positive economic growth, lift the poor from poverty and propel developed economies.
 
Founding Members:
Aaron Hirsch Perry – COO, Joe Perry’s Rock Your World, (company of Aerosmith guitarist, Joe Perry)
Vitalik Buterin – Founder, Etherium
Raj Mehta – CEO, Kilowatt Capital
David Mondrus – Tech CEO, miner
Greg Simon – Bitcoin entrepreneur, Former banker, JP Morgan
Bruce Fenton – Founder, Atlantic Financial
Peter Ildelfonso – Bitcoin investor
JD Thomas – Bitcoin investor
Makki Al Kurdi – Tech professional and Bitcoin miner, Middle East

A representative from the Bitshares community should join this. Would you like represent us CWEvans?

Lifetime VIP Membership is .5 Bitcoin or $500
http://bitcoinassociation.org/register/initial-membership/
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 04:03:27 AM by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

 

Google+