Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"  (Read 1081 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« on: April 21, 2014, 03:30:15 AM »

I discovered bitshares shortly after starting my voyage into Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations".  Both coincided with a new found frustration with my current employer, Intel".   I was co-founder of 4matt and Rebit.com.  I was the lead product engineer behind OnStream and Iomega's Ditto line of products and later, a lead engineer on the Zip drive.

More than monetary reward, I like "fixing" things and I think our systems of commerce to be the next killer application to focus upon.  I got really excited with the notion of an anonymous and decentralized control of corporate entities  However, I read and studied to my feed limit and gave myself the weekend off to think about it, and am still at a loss on the sustainable business model for when all the crypto chains have been calculated.   In fact, I am at a loss to any business model that is not based on the speculative cancer that plagues current unsustainable business models.

I see a vehicle that is perfectly adapt for distributed autonomous ownership of TANGIBLE assets, being flaunted as a hedge against frivolous and arbitrary assumptions on limitations of a Van Neumann style machine.

What I would like to see, before I check in the rest of my code, is a business model where every single hash for a crypto currency, has been calculated and accepted and yet it still "functions" as real trade - and the system that still works.

Everybody playing this game is so focused on their place in the blockchain, that they seem to have forgotten that Susie Q Homemaker at the checkout line at her grocer, by federal law NEVER pays a transaction fee. 

The game of commerce is up to the processors.  All 12 to 17 of them involved with a single swipe of a Visa card.  A game that they are willing to play to lose if they can collect enough data from the consumer (AMEX).

Where is the business model that is detached from the academic exercise of finding the hash that satisfies a target?  Where is the distributed company that can coalesce against a tangible asset? 

Crypto chains are easy, and are going to get easier according to Moore's law.  Every argument against memory in ASICS's is short term.  Where is the business model for an alternative distribution in the ownership of real world assets?

I want to see a case where a Chinese consortium can "buy" up a controlling interest in a city block of Manhattan, unnoticed.    I can't get there from where we are now, nor can I see a compelling reason for Susie Q Homemaker to save 2% on her grocery bill by using a crypto currency that, at best, takes 1 hour to acknowledge.

I'm not being derogatory, just pragmatic.  I don't believe in speculative ponzi schemes, but I do believe the time is right for the right group of coders to offer an alternative.  I am an American who believes we've been coasting on our self minted laurels far longer than what is sustainable. 

Somebody, please demonstrate the business model to me for either a Ho Chi Minh or a Susie Q. Homemaker - after the last crypto-token has been mined that offers a compelling system of trade that eclipses a state sponsored and sanctioned tool for the same.

We can build a better world - I'm just trying to shed my doubts.

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 03:43:44 AM »
Sounds like you know the business model, why not demonstrate it yourself?  This community is very self-starter oriented and Invictus has a big pile of money dedicated to expanding the space so do good work and perhaps you'll get a grant.
Email me at [email protected]

Offline bytemaster

Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 05:41:47 AM »
Thanks for posting.  I think this would be a great topic for Tuesday mumble session.  I would like to invite Adam as well.

It is VERY clear that you are missing some fundamental concepts across the board.   

Understanding DACs has nothing to do with being a proven coder, so lets drop that implied appeal to authority. 

 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 03:07:00 PM »
It was not my intent to come across as boisterous.  Previously successful in creating a software company, yes, but obviously ignorant of some big picture concepts here.  I look forward to Tuesday's mumble session.

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 05:02:57 PM »
Somebody, please demonstrate the business model to me for either a Ho Chi Minh or a Susie Q. Homemaker - after the last crypto-token has been mined that offers a compelling system of trade that eclipses a state sponsored and sanctioned tool for the same.

Hi John, thanks for your post.  I want to see if I can try to answer the main question that you raised... I'm paraphrasing: "why would a decentralized currency a la bitcoin be preferable to the user over a state sponsored currency."  I hope I have your question correct.

I think bitshares uses an important phrase "social consensus".  I think social consensus is at play not just in the value of bitcoin but also in the value of fiat currency and more broadly the idea that any state or government has any authority at all.  The authority and ability of the US government to enforce laws boils down to social consensus.  Why do we allow 9 people on the supreme court to decide what laws are enforced and what laws are thrown out and possibly allow these 9 people to have decided the outcome of the 2000 presidential election where the majority of American voters voted for the other candidate?  social consensus in the system.  Governments have not typically been very efficient at representing the interests of citizens but if governments and leaders are not careful to act in a way that seems at least somewhat reasonable/fair they can quickly lose power and be overthrown; i.e. they can lose the social consensus.  e.g. Egypt, Ukraine, etc.

The US dollar that we are used to is probably one of the "better" fiat currencies out there so it doesn't seem so bad.  Look up the value chart of the now defunct Zimbabwean dollar (you can buy a 100 trillion dollar bill on ebay for fun).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar

Imagine you lived in a country that used a fiat currency that was backed by a local social consensus and possibly weak social consensus, and you knew that the warlord leader just printed more of the state currency whenever he wanted to buy a lamborghini, and the value of the money was constantly tanking.  Would you prefer to use this currency or would you prefer a currency backed by an international social consensus where the money is valued everywhere, and is easy to transmit, assets can't be frozen or stolen from you for political or legal reasons, and more can't be printed?

I could keep talking more about bitshares but don't want to make it too long.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 05:13:07 PM by Agent86 »

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 08:35:54 PM »
Thanks Agent86. 

I completely get the notion of a currency that is controlled by a majority of its users as opposed to a minority in power, but it seems that any entity that has authoritative or physical control of the network, implicitly has the power to shut such a thing down.  So as a tyranny "resistant" form of trade, I don't quite get it.  One need only to look at Argentina's currency manipulation and China's manipulation of the internet to see that they are pretty much two sides of the same "coin".

As a complementary form of trade that parallels and piggybacks existing currency, I can imagine a subset of trade that would benefit the anonymity and security of crypto.   But I'm still at a loss for a compelling use case for a Susie Q Homemaker.  Even more so when you consider that every crypto currency like Bitcoin is a fixed sized asset that will continue to get smaller and smaller over time, causing its own form of deflation against any assets pegged to it.

The only time I had an "ah-ha" moment, was when I started thinking about a Bitshares like concept, as applied to physical assets, "owned" by an anonymous crowd.

I live in Colorado.  We've had legal Marijuana sales for a number of years, but not till this year did the feds promise not to prosecute banks that worked with them.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26248396

Perhaps a huge opportunity was lost for the crypto community.  I can imagine someone setting up a (legal) pot shop and issuing digital shares in exchange for resources to start the business (cash, utility bills, store front, etc).  I can imagine how shareholders could be paid profits in some form of digital currency that could then be exchanged for more conventional currencies.  It also offers some interesting options for consumers to pay with digital currencies - how would the mandatory taxes be calculated?

Another use case is gun sales in Wyoming and Texas.   After Colorado's recent high capacity magazine ban, many of my friends are (legally) buying their toys in Wyoming for cash and bypassing what the Boulder and Denver tried to impose on the rest of Colorado.

I'm still trying hard to imagine a sustainable business model where the act of mining is NOT a primary aspect of the business.  Something that offers value by what it _does_  rather than speculation of what it might be.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 08:40:50 PM »

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 09:04:58 PM »
I think the most stripped down basic example of a profitable DAC is a lottery or gambling.  The lottery is large multibillion $/ year business.  If Susie Q can buy lotto tickets and play this game that she enjoys and get better odds and a better reward and possibly better tax consequences or the ability to easily avoid any possibility of having winnings tied to her real identity... Why would she play the traditional lotto?  I believe this is easily possible with a DAC.

There are already blockchain based gambling games in existance.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 11:07:32 PM »
The lottery model is the very thing I'm having a hard time with in this crypto currency/shares landscape.  In a stable lottery, the users serve the needs of business and on average the user "loses".  If the currency IS the product then trade is an artifact of the product, not its purpose.   That's the part that I'm having a hard time embracing.

I'm pretty sure Visa would not have survived if its business model was a lottery where there was a 1% chance of a "free" purchase, but a 50% chance of being overcharged.

There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.

Offline bytemaster

Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:49 AM »
The lottery model is the very thing I'm having a hard time with in this crypto currency/shares landscape.  In a stable lottery, the users serve the needs of business and on average the user "loses".  If the currency IS the product then trade is an artifact of the product, not its purpose.   That's the part that I'm having a hard time embracing.

I'm pretty sure Visa would not have survived if its business model was a lottery where there was a 1% chance of a "free" purchase, but a 50% chance of being overcharged.

There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.

You are speaking a foreign language from where I sit.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 01:37:09 AM »
Thanks John for your post! Raising questions like this and exposing one's current understanding of the matter is the only way to enhance one's understanding.
I don't think Bytemaster thought you where ignorant or something. Comes across as such sometimes when we can not look at each other :)
Here are the details for the mumble server https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0 in case you haven't found them yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk is a great start.
What did you mean by stable lottery? Basically, DACs do not directly have anything to do with currency. In the lottery DAC the currency is not the product, the fun of gambling is. Visa would be comparable to Bitcoin but not to a lottery DAC. A lottery DAC uses (basically) the same technology as Bitcoin but with a totally different functionality for the user. A DAC lottery would just let you buy a lottery ticket as you buy an altcoin. You for example buy a lottery ticket that grants you a 49.99% chance to double up on the value of the ticket. Then an algorithm that is open source and powered by the Lottery DAC network (comparable to the network of miners with Bitcoin) decides whether you won or not. If you won, you are paid out either in lotto shares or in an other digital currency which you can exchange for USD (not so sure about that part). 0.001 % of the ticket value on average goes to the shareholders. Your business model: Super low operational costs, secure against corruption/fraud, anonymous, potentially great choice of options of tickets. The challenge is to make it easily accessible for the average guy. Here is the Lotto Whitepaper if you want to get into the details https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkaAnuM0a_YU2yMaeDSDiyNUv96c9TrYrCjKadC01yA/edit?pli=1
Looking forward to the discussion with you on Tuesday. Is great to have some fresh questions and critical input! 

Quote
There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.
I recommend to watch the youtube video above. It completely - and rightfully so - dissolves the ambiguity of cryptocurrency and cryptoshares.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 03:59:36 AM »
Thank you so very much delulo!

I'm starting the homework assignments now.   I may end up switching over to a windows laptop, but so far I seem to have Mumble up and running on FreeBSD (Yippee!).

Offline bytemaster

Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 11:54:42 AM »
I certainly never thought he was ignorant.  My comment was meant to indicate that I didn't have time to address it all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 12:56:27 PM »
I certainly never thought he was ignorant.  My comment was meant to indicate that I didn't have time to address it all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+5
It's impossible for one person to do it all! You have the best overview how to delegate to the community and make the most use of it. If we could find an incentive structure that would further motivate the community to practically produce stuff in fields like marketing, eduction (a wiki etc.) it would greatly enhance productivity. Clains for example made a suggestion here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4059.msg50889#msg50889
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:04:44 PM by delulo »

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 03:59:38 PM »
I'll be the first to profess a PROFOUND ignorance on this subject....

My general approach with such things is to poke at it from all sides till I find the foundation and structure like like all truths, becomes self evident once discovered.

The talk with Daniel & Dr. Charles Evans was precisely the kind of systematic and pragmatic breakdown of the moving pieces that I had been seeking to bootstrap my understanding.

My earlier comment regarding a "stable" lottery was in reference to the two most precarious transitions for such a thing - the start and the end. In the beginning, there tends to be an infusion of "funds" that must be diligently managed and conserved while being leveraged to expand the audience for the lottery.  I look at social security as a very deterministic "lottery", won by those who survive to age 72, Had its infusion of cash been properly managed, it would not be facing the crisis involved in winding it down today.  Social security would have remained completely solvent had its income not be re-appropriated into the government's general fund (in violation of its original "business" logic).

I look forward to this evenings Mumble session - thanks again to delulo for the complete "how to" participate links!

- John "S"

 

Google+