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Offline bitbully

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Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« on: November 11, 2013, 03:41:42 PM »

This whole operation is very amateurish and there was no preparation. There is also a likelihood of malice by the project operators.

Firstly, all the clients are being released, unsigned, on a non-ssl server. A recipe for many people to lose their coins.

Secondly, the 2 hour notice hard-fork. Apart from that equating to a breach of contract, and essentially a dictatorial decision, it is ethically unsound since the initial miners all heavily benefit from this.

The market value has spiked because of this decision, and is classic pump and dump behavior. I lost out heavily because I purchased huge amounts of mining servers for this next month, based on a calculated risk/reward decision, and this change puts me in the red for good.

The claim that blocks were being mined too fast is no excuse. No modeling was done, and once the project started the only real option was to start over incase there was such a critical issue. Incase anybody missed the point, it's probably going to take a year if not more to mine what was mined in the first 5 days.

I can't believe people still fall for this stuff. It's like this entire ecosystem is about who can invent the next convincing scam. It's unfortunate because there are many good ideas here, but this is clearly not the team to execute.

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 04:01:40 PM »
It's your right to feel however you want about Invictus, but they definitely did not benefit from what happened.  I'm sorry you invested based off of what was clearly an unsustainable situation, I suspect it was that exact phenomenon - that all the blocks from a 2 year blockchain would be mined out in a few weeks - that led to the decision to fork, because the network power was continuing to grow faster than the max 4x difficulty adjustment could compensate,  which was causing most of the power to not even be doing anything productive since block times were as low as 20 seconds.

This was like an IPO where the founder was not able to arrange the funds to buy ASAP and had no options to exercise - If Invictus called for a do-over it would be other people crying foul because they mined or bought coins that would then be worthless, yet they wouldn't get their cpu cycles or BTC used to purchase back.


As far as the market price goes, its not that the price was inflated now so much as it was deflated before.  The first buy I did was from bytemaster @ .01, like the second trade that ever happened.  As speed increased the market was flooded with supply which caused a glut of sellers and few buyers since everybody who wanted it was mining and finding blocks for themselves.   

As far as the difficulty is concerned, they botched that one real good.   I hope they get it better next time because clearly its better for everyone if this had taken 8 weeks compared to 4 days.

There is no winning this scenario, the question is what happens next.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 04:02:30 PM »
Quote
Firstly, all the clients are being released, unsigned, on a non-ssl server. A recipe for many people to lose their coins.

Fully agree with you, there's no reason not to sign / ssl the compiled clients

Quote
Secondly, the 2 hour notice hard-fork. Apart from that equating to a breach of contract, and essentially a dictatorial decision, it is ethically unsound since the initial miners all heavily benefit from this.

I see your point, but ProtoShares would be rendered worthless (like Phoenixcoin worthless) if there was no hard fork done. Fork was too rushed in my opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but early miners always benefit from mining early?

Quote
The market value has spiked because of this decision, and is classic pump and dump behavior. I lost out heavily because I purchased huge amounts of mining servers for this next month, based on a calculated risk/reward decision, and this change puts me in the red for good.

There is no "market" yet. There are like 550k+ ProtoShares in the wild and I guess 10k have been traded. The price will regulate once it's on an exchange.


Quote
I can't believe people still fall for this stuff. It's like this entire ecosystem is about who can invent the next convincing scam. It's unfortunate because there are many good ideas here, but this is clearly not the team to execute.

Invictus has many good ideas, agreed. Call it scam? No, there are no "evil" intentions visible imo.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:04:19 PM by favdesu »
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Offline xxrforone

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 04:57:10 PM »
New things


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Offline soniq

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 06:29:44 PM »
As with any new protocol there is not a manual on how to launch one properly.

You plan as well as you can, launch and make adjustments and listen to  solid constructive advice as you go.

The platform has too many good features to abort now. 

What Invictus needs now is support, and we can all offer that in varying ways.

Mining, trading PTS, moderating sections of the forum and offering solutions to any problems/issues  that might arise.

Rome wasnt built in a day.


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Offline bitbully

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 07:55:51 PM »
Nothing is going to happen next, this is worse than the Novacoin premine, since here it can't be fixed as easily.

The decision made to intervene with the difficulty is a glimpse at how Invictus will treat problems in the future, with blatant force. The idea that you can manipulate a market(mining markets included) is philosophically opposed to everything bitcoin is about.

It was a huge mistake, and now this coin is tainted and cursed imho. What should have happened is simple. Let it run it's course, and if everything was mined in 2 weeks well there's nothing you can do about it. Either deal with it, or start over.

If anything, you should have retroactively adjusted the block size mining rewards according to a new preset difficulty scale, and so essentially all balances and txn amounts would have been cut by a consistent %. So those who mined 10k protoshares for example would have been left with 2k (as an example). Yes people who had already bought some would have been screwed with less than they bargained, but it is at the very least morally equivalent to what you did to the rest of us.

Perhaps this is still a viable option, of course those who benefited from this blatant manipulation will all of a sudden wake up and realize manipulating the protocol like this is bad - merely showing their hypocrisy, since everyone who already mined a bunch loved this decision. Limit market supply -> price goes up.

All the excuses I'm hearing remind me of that guy who owes me money and keeps telling me about how he had to pay for his car to be fixed, and then he lost his phone, and then his cat got sick...IT'S IRRELEVANT OF THE PRINCIPLE!

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »
Nothing is going to happen next, this is worse than the Novacoin premine, since here it can't be fixed as easily.

The decision made to intervene with the difficulty is a glimpse at how Invictus will treat problems in the future, with blatant force. The idea that you can manipulate a market(mining markets included) is philosophically opposed to everything bitcoin is about.

It was a huge mistake, and now this coin is tainted and cursed imho. What should have happened is simple. Let it run it's course, and if everything was mined in 2 weeks well there's nothing you can do about it. Either deal with it, or start over.

If anything, you should have retroactively adjusted the block size mining rewards according to a new preset difficulty scale, and so essentially all balances and txn amounts would have been cut by a consistent %. So those who mined 10k protoshares for example would have been left with 2k (as an example). Yes people who had already bought some would have been screwed with less than they bargained, but it is at the very least morally equivalent to what you did to the rest of us.

Perhaps this is still a viable option, of course those who benefited from this blatant manipulation will all of a sudden wake up and realize manipulating the protocol like this is bad - merely showing their hypocrisy, since everyone who already mined a bunch loved this decision. Limit market supply -> price goes up.

All the excuses I'm hearing remind me of that guy who owes me money and keeps telling me about how he had to pay for his car to be fixed, and then he lost his phone, and then his cat got sick...IT'S IRRELEVANT OF THE PRINCIPLE!

If you're right, Invictus will fail and the coins that have been mined will be worthless.  I'm sorry you made an investment in hardware that won't pay off, but at least by not holding any coins you are not exposed to their future mistakes.   

Personally I think this was a painful experience for the invictus team and they will learn from it with the next blockchain launch but only time will tell.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline ruletheworld

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 12:31:55 AM »
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 08:45:59 AM »
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 08:48:43 AM by bytemaster »
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Offline itnom

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 11:49:26 AM »
Hi bytemaster,

How are you intending to pay others who help in developing the DACs and all surrounding services?

I've personally got a webdev company and know plenty of good C and C++ developers. We've come around now and would get payed in bitcoin, but most of the team wouldn't accepts PTS at this point.

I'm personally very interested to contribute somehow to the development of DACs, though we're a pure web dev company.

Best,
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Offline ruletheworld

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)
Fair enough, but remember this also multiplies the expectations from BitShares. Not that it's a bad thing, just saying!
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Offline luckybit

Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2013, 12:28:39 PM »
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)

I figured that Protoshares were a stock in Invictus and that it is a DAC. Will we get dividends if we hold onto the Protoshares?
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Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 02:08:04 PM »
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)

I figured that Protoshares were a stock in Invictus and that it is a DAC. Will we get dividends if we hold onto the Protoshares?

Not sure why you think that, if you've read any of the material about Protoshares you should know it is fundamentally different from stock in Invictus - Stock in invictus implies you own part of the company, whereas owning Protoshares is essentially prepaying for the results of the company, the different products.

So Protoshares is different in that it has a tangible payoff behind it that will occur on a specific date, but it's not stock.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Stan

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 02:34:08 PM »
Agreed.  Invictus common stock is privately held and subject to all the usual regulations about if, when and how we can offer it to the public.

That said, ProtoShares is innovative in that it exhibits some of the benefits of owning actual stock in a company.  They serve as a surrogate for measuring the market's assessment of a company's future potential (or at least the potential of its announced and potential products) and thus a way for perceptive investors to indirectly participate in any growth of that assessment. 

Of course, if other competitors choose to honor ProtoShares in a social contract for their DACs, then ProtoShares might better be viewed as a vehicle for speculating on a whole new market sector.

Watch for a coming article where I lay out some of the emerging theory behind how DACs can spawn DACs.

This is a new frontier with many unknown risks and rewards.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 02:52:20 PM »
In a number of current articles at LetsTalkBitcoin.com we have documented our definition of what constitutes a true Distributed Autonomous Corporation (DAC). You can find them on the links tab at Invictus-Innovations.com

Invictus Innovations, INC is a flesh and blood company subject to all of the risks and regulations of the jurisdictions in which we operate.  We are highly distributed by design, but we are not autonomous and do not have DAC-like immunity to coercion from the Powers That Be.  We remain Invictus Innovations, INC.  ProtoShares might in some ways be viewed metaphorically as Invictus, DAC
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

 

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