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Offline jae208

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New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« on: April 24, 2014, 01:23:38 PM »

I decided to post this here as I think this may be of interest to some of you. It certainly was interesting to me.
This resonates with what we are doing with Bitshares.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xOK2aJ-0Js



The quote below was taken from an article I'll link to below. Each one of us is actively promoting the transition to a post-capitalist social order. DACs do have near zero marginal costs and the cost of starting a new digital bank will be as simple as forking.

"Past historical phase transitions, say the transition from the Roman Empire slave-based system to feudal serfdom, or the transition of feudalism to capitalism, where not exactly smooth affairs, so it may be un-realistic to expect a smooth and unproblematic phase transition towards a post-capitalist social order." 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel-bauwens/beyond-jeremy-rifkin-how-_b_5185948.html
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Offline luckybit

Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2014, 01:59:37 PM »
I decided to post this here as I think this may be of interest to some of you. It certainly was interesting to me.
This resonates with what we are doing with Bitshares.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xOK2aJ-0Js



The quote below was taken from an article I'll link to below. Each one of us is actively promoting the transition to a post-capitalist social order. DACs do have near zero marginal costs and the cost of starting a new digital bank will be as simple as forking.

"Past historical phase transitions, say the transition from the Roman Empire slave-based system to feudal serfdom, or the transition of feudalism to capitalism, where not exactly smooth affairs, so it may be un-realistic to expect a smooth and unproblematic phase transition towards a post-capitalist social order." 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel-bauwens/beyond-jeremy-rifkin-how-_b_5185948.html

That is what we are doing. And they know about Bitshares.

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Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2014, 03:22:40 PM »
I think to say that capitalism exist since the 19th is completely clueless. The term capitalist was coined by Marx in the 19th and the idea of a transition from feudalism to capitalism with the Industrial Revolution is also a Marx one. Repeating Marx's storytelling and categories is a serious handicap to say something intelligent about economic reality.

What people call capitalism since Marx is actually the private ownership of wealth (included the means of production), that reality exist since the dawn of Humanity and is not about to change.


Edit: After having watch the video, I read the article now. I found it very bad.
Pervasive marxism :
- "the failling rate of profit"
- "value creators are spoil of their value with capitalism, that can't last!"

And poor understanding of existing economics concepts:
"no more division of labor but distribution of tasks", oh yeah completely different!
" bla bla mutual coordination...  bla bla social collaboration", too bad the author don't hear about free market!

Always funny to see how people make appear revolutionnary and progressive the same old song.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 04:20:56 PM by BldSwtTrs »

Offline jae208

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 04:05:42 PM »
I decided to post this here as I think this may be of interest to some of you. It certainly was interesting to me.
This resonates with what we are doing with Bitshares.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xOK2aJ-0Js



The quote below was taken from an article I'll link to below. Each one of us is actively promoting the transition to a post-capitalist social order. DACs do have near zero marginal costs and the cost of starting a new digital bank will be as simple as forking.

"Past historical phase transitions, say the transition from the Roman Empire slave-based system to feudal serfdom, or the transition of feudalism to capitalism, where not exactly smooth affairs, so it may be un-realistic to expect a smooth and unproblematic phase transition towards a post-capitalist social order." 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel-bauwens/beyond-jeremy-rifkin-how-_b_5185948.html

That is what we are doing. And they know about Bitshares.

I agree  :)
I did not know they knew about Bitshares.
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
Subscribe to the Youtube Channel
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Offline gamey

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 07:34:25 PM »
There is something there about marginal costs approaching 0.  This is and will continue to have a huge impact on our society, perhaps as much as other issues.  I posted the same huffpost piece the other day in another thread.  (Or one very similar) 

One of the things about Bitshares is that it will make the marginal cost of an IPO/corporation approach 0.  Mayhem !  looooooooool.

I'm glad one of the 2 skills I learned well in life is writing code. 
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clout

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 01:36:17 AM »
we've touched upon socialism and capitalism in this thread. i have often wondered if socialism and capitalism go hand in hand. at first i believed as many believe that capitalism is socialist progression from feudalism. capitalism, however, has always been the structure of society, even if at points certain individuals or nations perturbed the efficiency of the free markets.

is it not possible for capitalism to evolve into socialism? if the greatest means of production were information and all information were made free and public, is this a socialist or capitalist society? the reason for property rights stems from the tragedy of the commons. but with information, a non-scarce resource, you have what is known as a comedy of the commons where by information becomes more valuable as more ppl use it.

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 02:35:12 AM »
is it not possible for capitalism to evolve into socialism? if the greatest means of production were information and all information were made free and public, is this a socialist or capitalist society? the reason for property rights stems from the tragedy of the commons. but with information, a non-scarce resource, you have what is known as a comedy of the commons where by information becomes more valuable as more ppl use it.
Information and knowledge will always be costly to acquire. Also the affirmation that an information is more valuable when more people know it is highly counterintuitive and debatable.

Blockchain technologies allow a decentralize control of ownership, they are the empowerment of the individual ownership. I don't see how we can interpret that as the premise of socialism.
Capitalism will end the day where human nature will change, a transhuman shift can end capitalism, nothing less. But even when transhuman technologies will be avalaible I don't think people will choose to abandon the primacy of their individuality.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 02:39:32 AM by BldSwtTrs »

clout

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 03:39:49 AM »
what is the marginal cost of spreading information? what is the marginal benefit?

the cost of acquiring information can be paid for with a derivative asset that is correlated to its utility in society. in this way we no longer need patents. innovators do not have to pay the fees associated with patents and the economy does not need to suffer an artificial monopoly, all while still providing incentive to research and innovate.

how is information not more valuable as more people use it? that seems to go against the entire premise of the open source movement. 

im not saying capitalism will end, what i am saying is that when the main mode of production is information based and information is free, does that make us a socialist society as well?

Offline bytemaster

Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 04:39:41 AM »
what is the marginal cost of spreading information? what is the marginal benefit?

the cost of acquiring information can be paid for with a derivative asset that is correlated to its utility in society. in this way we no longer need patents. innovators do not have to pay the fees associated with patents and the economy does not need to suffer an artificial monopoly, all while still providing incentive to research and innovate.

how is information not more valuable as more people use it? that seems to go against the entire premise of the open source movement. 

im not saying capitalism will end, what i am saying is that when the main mode of production is information based and information is free, does that make us a socialist society as well?

Socialist / Capitalist is all missing the point... all that matters is the use of force.  Eliminate that and the voluntary transactions of individuals is all that matters. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline gamey

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 04:44:57 AM »

the cost of acquiring information can be paid for with a derivative asset that is correlated to its utility in society. in this way we no longer need patents. innovators do not have to pay the fees associated with patents and the economy does not need to suffer an artificial monopoly, all while still providing incentive to research and innovate.
...

how is information not more valuable as more people use it? that seems to go against the entire premise of the open source movement. 


I do not get the first part at all.  How would a derivative asset correlate to the utility of society ?  How would it be determined ?



Information has many different categories.  The 4 off hand that have may different answers to your questions.

1) General advances.  Medical, engineering etc.

More valuable to society when more use it, but not necesarily more value to those acquiring it.  Their skills are diluted, more competition etc.

2) Entertainment.  You'd need to define value to the consumer or value to the producer in a way similar to the above.

3) Exploitive knowledge that is not widely know.  The value plummets as more use it.  Similar to category 1.

4) Open source ?  I may derive value in using it, but that doesn't mean that I receive more value as more people use it.

Really this is a semantic issue and you need to be more precise in defining value and to whom.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 04:47:28 AM by gamey »
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Offline tipon

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2014, 05:02:44 AM »
Capitalism is not only the private ownership of wealth.  Capitalism is basically the compulsive necessity of growth that emerge as result of competition.
Capitalism is based on competition.
New postcapitalist economy should be based on collaboration.




I think to say that capitalism exist since the 19th is completely clueless. The term capitalist was coined by Marx in the 19th and the idea of a transition from feudalism to capitalism with the Industrial Revolution is also a Marx one. Repeating Marx's storytelling and categories is a serious handicap to say something intelligent about economic reality.

What people call capitalism since Marx is actually the private ownership of wealth (included the means of production), that reality exist since the dawn of Humanity and is not about to change.


Edit: After having watch the video, I read the article now. I found it very bad.
Pervasive marxism :
- "the failling rate of profit"
- "value creators are spoil of their value with capitalism, that can't last!"

And poor understanding of existing economics concepts:
"no more division of labor but distribution of tasks", oh yeah completely different!
" bla bla mutual coordination...  bla bla social collaboration", too bad the author don't hear about free market!

Always funny to see how people make appear revolutionnary and progressive the same old song.

Offline bytemaster

Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2014, 05:10:14 AM »
Capitalism is not only the private ownership of wealth.  Capitalism is basically the compulsive necessity of growth that emerge as result of competition.
Capitalism is based on competition.
New postcapitalist economy should be based on collaboration.




I think to say that capitalism exist since the 19th is completely clueless. The term capitalist was coined by Marx in the 19th and the idea of a transition from feudalism to capitalism with the Industrial Revolution is also a Marx one. Repeating Marx's storytelling and categories is a serious handicap to say something intelligent about economic reality.

What people call capitalism since Marx is actually the private ownership of wealth (included the means of production), that reality exist since the dawn of Humanity and is not about to change.


Edit: After having watch the video, I read the article now. I found it very bad.
Pervasive marxism :
- "the failling rate of profit"
- "value creators are spoil of their value with capitalism, that can't last!"

And poor understanding of existing economics concepts:
"no more division of labor but distribution of tasks", oh yeah completely different!
" bla bla mutual coordination...  bla bla social collaboration", too bad the author don't hear about free market!

Always funny to see how people make appear revolutionnary and progressive the same old song.

What is collaboration but voluntary trade and elimination of initiation of force or fraud.  The society that emerges from that reality will be what is right and is free from all labels you may wish to put on it. 

"distribution of tasks"  by whom... this is called CENTRAL planning.

If you are going to debate over the definition of terms that is one thing... but realize that is all you are doing. 

I think that capitalism is based upon competition to collaborate the most effectively.    The division of labor is the result of collaboration.   Explain collaboration without central authority?   
 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

clout

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2014, 05:48:58 AM »

the cost of acquiring information can be paid for with a derivative asset that is correlated to its utility in society. in this way we no longer need patents. innovators do not have to pay the fees associated with patents and the economy does not need to suffer an artificial monopoly, all while still providing incentive to research and innovate.
...

how is information not more valuable as more people use it? that seems to go against the entire premise of the open source movement. 


I do not get the first part at all.  How would a derivative asset correlate to the utility of society ?  How would it be determined ?



Information has many different categories.  The 4 off hand that have may different answers to your questions.

1) General advances.  Medical, engineering etc.

More valuable to society when more use it, but not necesarily more value to those acquiring it.  Their skills are diluted, more competition etc.

2) Entertainment.  You'd need to define value to the consumer or value to the producer in a way similar to the above.

3) Exploitive knowledge that is not widely know.  The value plummets as more use it.  Similar to category 1.

4) Open source ?  I may derive value in using it, but that doesn't mean that I receive more value as more people use it.

Really this is a semantic issue and you need to be more precise in defining value and to whom.

look to this thread to understand the first part: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1053.15

and im talking about value added to society on a whole.  less information asymmetry leads to more efficient exchange in the free markets. more information leads to more solutions to solving scarcity, thus greater economic development. some information is certainly more valuable than others, and some information might lead to adverse outcomes, but its very hard to keep of information secret in the information age.

Offline jae208

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2014, 09:43:40 AM »
I think to say that capitalism exist since the 19th is completely clueless. The term capitalist was coined by Marx in the 19th and the idea of a transition from feudalism to capitalism with the Industrial Revolution is also a Marx one. Repeating Marx's storytelling and categories is a serious handicap to say something intelligent about economic reality.

What people call capitalism since Marx is actually the private ownership of wealth (included the means of production), that reality exist since the dawn of Humanity and is not about to change.


Edit: After having watch the video, I read the article now. I found it very bad.
Pervasive marxism :
- "the failling rate of profit"
- "value creators are spoil of their value with capitalism, that can't last!"

And poor understanding of existing economics concepts:
"no more division of labor but distribution of tasks", oh yeah completely different!
" bla bla mutual coordination...  bla bla social collaboration", too bad the author don't hear about free market!

Always funny to see how people make appear revolutionnary and progressive the same old song.

He is saying that because of the recent technological revolution we are in, producing an additional unit of a good or service costs almost nothing. As a result, goods and services are nearly priceless, free, and abundant.(physical goods will become more abundant with the advancement of 3D printers)

What does this mean in terms of the free market when goods and services are abundant and cheap? What happens when everything around you is no more than an information file you upload to a website like thingiverse.com and then print at home with your 3D printer?

If for the first time in human history technology makes everything abundant will the same market forces that applied in the old paradigm still apply to the new? Now, human demand may be insatiable but will the same economic forces that apply in today's resource scarce world apply in a world with virtually unlimited resources?

You say that the private ownership of wealth existed since the dawn of humanity and I find that a little hard to believe since if you were unfortunate enough to be a slave at any point in history the only concept of private ownership you would know of was about you belonging to your owner.
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Offline jae208

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Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2014, 10:07:49 AM »
is it not possible for capitalism to evolve into socialism? if the greatest means of production were information and all information were made free and public, is this a socialist or capitalist society? the reason for property rights stems from the tragedy of the commons. but with information, a non-scarce resource, you have what is known as a comedy of the commons where by information becomes more valuable as more ppl use it.
Information and knowledge will always be costly to acquire. Also the affirmation that an information is more valuable when more people know it is highly counterintuitive and debatable.

Blockchain technologies allow a decentralize control of ownership, they are the empowerment of the individual ownership. I don't see how we can interpret that as the premise of socialism.
Capitalism will end the day where human nature will change, a transhuman shift can end capitalism, nothing less. But even when transhuman technologies will be avalaible I don't think people will choose to abandon the primacy of their individuality.

I don't see how information and knowledge is costly to acquire since there are tons of free resources online that allow you to acquire new information/knowledge. Coursera, Udacity, various forums, youtube etc.
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
Subscribe to the Youtube Channel
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