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Offline BitShares.com

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117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« on: May 10, 2014, 04:19:15 PM »

http://www1.agsexplorer.com/balances/PaNGELmZgzRQCKeEKM6ifgTqNkC4ceiAWw

How will these be handled? This is effectively a ≈6% corporate premine.

I was thinking of this, and it seems a bit unfair that people donated PTS to get BTSX, but their actual percentage of total shares is diluted by these BTSX allocated to the Angel Address itself. It is even more unfair for BTC donators, as their shares become diluted as more people donate PTS.

Doesn't it make more sense to not include the Angel Address into any of the allocation snapshots?

Offline xeroc

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 04:32:49 PM »
Or burn them after launch(es)
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Offline gamey

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2014, 04:39:07 PM »


The more money for I3 the better job they'll do.  I'm pretty convinced Dan has a serious life-longish mission to make the best bitcoin 2.0 technologies he can.  I expect him to keep trying until that big pot of money is gone. So the more he has, the happier I am.
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Offline smiley35

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 04:47:03 PM »
I am against this idea.  They are the product of donated pts. We all knew this would happen. And they will be used as part of the angel shares fund. 


They benefit shareholders greatly.  Your sentiment seems to be that of a short term speculator.

Offline toast

Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 04:53:28 PM »
First of all, I3 already said BTS X from the snapshot would not be touched. Other DACs snapshots will be used for development. THIS IS A GOOD THING, all the funds are committed to ecosystem development.

Secondly, how on earth is it not fair? It is very very clearly stated exactly how it works. It's not fair because if it were changed, you'd get more money? =)
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Offline BitShares.com

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 06:20:06 PM »
Perhaps unfair is the wrong word. To me, it just seems that honoring the Angel Address undermines the whole point of donating in exchange for AngelShares.

It concerns me that Invictus has said the BTSX funds from this allocation 'would not be touched'. Does that mean indefinitely? Or until they feel like it? If they are to stand by that word, they may as well burn the shares.

I am all for funding development, that is the point of AngelShares. I also understand that this was to be expected, as this is simply a logical result of how the system works. To me, it just seems much simpler for investors to make intelligent informed decisions with their funds without the complexity overhead that honoring the Angel Address adds. The whole AngelShares funding concept isn't the simplest thing to wrap your head around, and this adds deep complexity to the system. I don't think most people factored in this dilution of their share allocation when donating.

Offline toast

Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 06:25:33 PM »
It doesn't dilute your share though. Those pts would be honored no matter who held them. I thought the whole point of being able to donate pts was so that you could put future snapshots into the ags fund, so that it can grow even after ags period is over.

Would be good to have confirmation about result of btsx snapshot. They could send it into unclaimable addresses over the period of a year so they slowly get paid as dividends over time.

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Online Stan

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 08:50:10 PM »
Try looking at it this way:

The price of PTS at any point in time represents the market's assessment of the potential of the entire BitShares industry.

When a DAC spins off, some of that potential spins off with it and the price of PTS drops by the amount of future potential that is no longer predicted by PTS.  Nobody minds though, because they now own shares in both and the sum of the two is greater because the value that moved has gone from potential to actual.

So when donated PTS shares "split" the donated value just moves into different buckets.  It is still there to help fund the growth of the industry as the donors intended.  To the extent that these spin-offs are successful, the seed money available to maintain and promote them grows too.

And thus each successful spinoff replenishes the supply of funds expended to create it, making those funds available again for the next DAC in the development queue.  With luck, the funds will grow exponentially, making the number of DACs we can fund in parallel grow exponentially.

This is what we have promised to do with spinoffs from donated funds.  We did not promise to leave them idle or to burn them.  That would be poor stewardship indeed!

 

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Offline toast

Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 08:59:38 PM »
Quote
We did not promise to leave them idle or to burn them.  That would be poor stewardship indeed!

For BTS XT in particular I'm pretty certain you said you would not touch them. I wouldn't mind if you did and I think that we should, I'm just recalling what you said. Trying to find that post now.
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Offline toast

Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 09:02:10 PM »
Let's hope I'm wrong and you never said that... It would be nice to spend XTS for development.
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Offline jwiz168

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 09:34:35 PM »
Back when snapshot has taken place, the ratio between AGS and PTS was 3.33:1.33 .The natural instinct of an investor that time was to donate because it will yield much more as compare to somebody who held their PTS.  The dilution of shares you are talking about is that 10000 AGS shares allocation were up for grabs in a day. For me this is fair in terms of having everybody getting a chance to invest at bitshares. Just imagine if the AGS allocation is not diluted and the ratio would be 1 bts per AGS. An investor can easily grabbed the 10000 AGS allocation by himself without giving others a chance to have a stake at bitshares for a day. If somebody wanted bigger share then he or she must donate bigger amount . This is the reason why we call it shares. Sharing a  worthy investment.

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 11:01:52 PM »
Quote
We did not promise to leave them idle or to burn them.  That would be poor stewardship indeed!

For BTS XT in particular I'm pretty certain you said you would not touch them. I wouldn't mind if you did and I think that we should, I'm just recalling what you said. Trying to find that post now.

You can find my first discussion of the topic on January 10th (w.r.t. bytemaster's from January 9th) here (emphasis added):  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2196.msg25902#msg25902

Quote
Quote from: bytemaster on January 09, 2014, 07:46:27 PM

We will be using the BitShares earned in the Angel Address to fund development of the ecosystem.
Quote
Quote from: Stan on January 10, 2014, 02:19:24 AM

The question bytemaster was answering is who gets the BTS for all the as-yet unspent PTS donated for AGS?  The answer is they go back into the same kitty to fund infrastructure development and promote the industry.  NOT to Invictus.

 :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:14:17 PM by Stan »
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Offline 天籁

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 11:56:34 PM »
 +5%
Try looking at it this way:

The price of PTS at any point in time represents the market's assessment of the potential of the entire BitShares industry.

When a DAC spins off, some of that potential spins off with it and the price of PTS drops by the amount of future potential that is no longer predicted by PTS.  Nobody minds though, because they now own shares in both and the sum of the two is greater because the value that moved has gone from potential to actual.

So when donated PTS shares "split" the donated value just moves into different buckets.  It is still there to help fund the growth of the industry as the donors intended.  To the extent that these spin-offs are successful, the seed money available to maintain and promote them grows too.

And thus each successful spinoff replenishes the supply of funds expended to create it, making those funds available again for the next DAC in the development queue.  With luck, the funds will grow exponentially, making the number of DACs we can fund in parallel grow exponentially.

This is what we have promised to do with spinoffs from donated funds.  We did not promise to leave them idle or to burn them.  That would be poor stewardship indeed!

Offline sudo

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2014, 03:14:27 AM »
Try looking at it this way:

The price of PTS at any point in time represents the market's assessment of the potential of the entire BitShares industry.

When a DAC spins off, some of that potential spins off with it and the price of PTS drops by the amount of future potential that is no longer predicted by PTS.  Nobody minds though, because they now own shares in both and the sum of the two is greater because the value that moved has gone from potential to actual.

So when donated PTS shares "split" the donated value just moves into different buckets.  It is still there to help fund the growth of the industry as the donors intended.  To the extent that these spin-offs are successful, the seed money available to maintain and promote them grows too.

And thus each successful spinoff replenishes the supply of funds expended to create it, making those funds available again for the next DAC in the development queue.  With luck, the funds will grow exponentially, making the number of DACs we can fund in parallel grow exponentially.

This is what we have promised to do with spinoffs from donated funds.  We did not promise to leave them idle or to burn them.  That would be poor stewardship indeed!

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

Offline BitShares.com

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Re: 117,567 BitShares allocated to PTS Angel Address
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2014, 02:40:30 PM »
Thank you for the explanations and clarifications everyone.

 

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