Poll

Do you want AGS to get liquid and when?

Yes. Immediately after the fundraising/donation period ends
Yes. After 6 months
Yes. After 12 months
Yes. After 18 months
Yes. After 24 months
Yes. Let Invictus decide the right timing for that! (2 years max frame period). I trust more their decision then my.
No. It is better it stays like it is.
I don't know
I want Invictus to Decide if yes or no and when.

Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!  (Read 685 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline liondani

The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« on: May 18, 2014, 08:20:27 AM »

I think Invictus must "use" their sword (community) to cut the Gordian Knot  ;)
If enough members vote here I think it would be wise for Invictus to respect their decisions ASAP  and make an "official" statement (before end of fundraising would be optimal) about them here in the near future...
I personaly see no negatives on respecting the communitys "voice" and ... reimagine everything! (edit: if necessary)


« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 09:39:08 PM by liondani »
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2865
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BTS: Stan
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2014, 01:14:52 PM »
There are two differences in the value proposition of PTS vs AGS:

1.  PTS is liquid.

2.  AGS represents a demographic with proven willingness to donate to the DAC industry.

Point 2 is what makes developers want to attract the support of AGS holders.

If AGS becomes liquid, then we don't know who is holding them any more.  They are surely strong supporters just like PTS holders, but are they still the kind of person you want to attract to your DAC because they are likely to donate to more good causes?

If AGS become liquid, will they lose what makes them extra attractive to developers looking for someone worthy of their free share promotions?

Something to think about anyway.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2014, 04:54:01 PM »
This topic has been discussed before. I doubt AGS will ever be made directly liquid. However, on another thread, someone raised the possibility that a smart person could some day create an AGS linked coin. Essentially, a separate coin could be created and distributed/premined/airdropped to the AGS holder list. Fascinating science experiment...

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2014, 07:30:28 PM »
This topic has been discussed before. I doubt AGS will ever be made directly liquid. However, on another thread, someone raised the possibility that a smart person could some day create an AGS linked coin. Essentially, a separate coin could be created and distributed/premined/airdropped to the AGS holder list. Fascinating science experiment...

Then how do future DACs support it?   To the detriment of the original AGS ?  Or does AGS then get twice the shares ?

One thing that has concerned me is that if you had a suspicion your wallet was compromised, you would be powerless to do anything.  You would have to create a system to withdraw all dividends  ASAP.  If you had enough AGS, it might be enough incentive for the hacker to do the same.  Then it would be a race to see who would transfer funds the quickest whenever dividends landed in the wallet.

I really like Stan's #2 point.  Previously I had suggested a mining pool that could pay in AGS (impossible to implement).  He explained how it affected the social contract. I disagreed at the time but later after a bit of thought I changed my mind.  If you want DAC implementors to honor the social contract, it really helps to do stuff like keep AGS illiquid. 
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2014, 09:12:22 PM »
No, I was not talking about DAC integration. Previously, someone had suggested a separate AGS-linked coin. I was merely relating that suggestion.

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2014, 09:13:00 PM »
This topic has been discussed before. I doubt AGS will ever be made directly liquid. However, on another thread, someone raised the possibility that a smart person could some day create an AGS linked coin. Essentially, a separate coin could be created and distributed/premined/airdropped to the AGS holder list. Fascinating science experiment...

Then how do future DACs support it?   To the detriment of the original AGS ?  Or does AGS then get twice the shares ?

One thing that has concerned me is that if you had a suspicion your wallet was compromised, you would be powerless to do anything.  You would have to create a system to withdraw all dividends  ASAP.  If you had enough AGS, it might be enough incentive for the hacker to do the same.  Then it would be a race to see who would transfer funds the quickest whenever dividends landed in the wallet.

I really like Stan's #2 point.  Previously I had suggested a mining pool that could pay in AGS (impossible to implement).  He explained how it affected the social contract. I disagreed at the time but later after a bit of thought I changed my mind.  If you want DAC implementors to honor the social contract, it really helps to do stuff like keep AGS illiquid.

Security is definitely the strongest argument for making them liquid I think, but really I think there are very few scenarios in which a key is compromised but the owner knows and has time to move to a new key.  The most likely scenario for key compromises targeting AGS specifically would be if someone put out a malicious DAC wallet and got people to import their keys into it.  As it is, the malicious wallet could forward their keys to the attacker, but if AGS were liquid it could immediately send all of their AGS to the attacker.  Either way the solution is not to use wallets unless you either trust the source or read the source.

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2014, 10:03:06 PM »
Security is definitely the strongest argument for making them liquid I think, but really I think there are very few scenarios in which a key is compromised but the owner knows and has time to move to a new key.  The most likely scenario for key compromises targeting AGS specifically would be if someone put out a malicious DAC wallet and got people to import their keys into it.  As it is, the malicious wallet could forward their keys to the attacker, but if AGS were liquid it could immediately send all of their AGS to the attacker.  Either way the solution is not to use wallets unless you either trust the source or read the source.

Yikes.  I hadn't really thought it through and was just thinking on an individual 'my computer was likely compromised' scenario.  Hopefully I could then move my AGS before the hacker(s) realized what they had. 

The scenario you mention is a bigger problem.  The liquidity of AGS is a double edged sword when it comes to security.  This stuff really bums me out when talking about cryptocurrencies, because theft is so trivial and untraceable.  I don't ever see it not being a problem and will forever slow the widespread adoption of cryptocurrencies and for good reason. :(

It seems AGS needs a password lock function to receive dividends... If only dev resources were infinite.

Donkeypong - I wasn't suggesting you meant anything else, but what value would an AGS coin have if it didn't receive DAC dividends ?  I am missing the value proposition.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2014, 10:14:19 PM »
It would just be another alt coin (unless someone found a good way to integrate it), but one that provided some perceived value to AGS holders. Call it a sequel or a spinoff. Certainly, a number of them would unload it. But if one were airdropping a new coin to any group, that might be a good group of folks upon which to base a community.

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 10:21:48 PM »
...

Yikes.  I hadn't really thought it through and was just thinking on an individual 'my computer was likely compromised' scenario.  Hopefully I could then move my AGS before the hacker(s) realized what they had. 

The scenario you mention is a bigger problem.  The liquidity of AGS is a double edged sword when it comes to security.  This stuff really bums me out when talking about cryptocurrencies, because theft is so trivial and untraceable.  I don't ever see it not being a problem and will forever slow the widespread adoption of cryptocurrencies and for good reason. :(

It seems AGS needs a password lock function to receive dividends... If only dev resources were infinite.

Donkeypong - I wasn't suggesting you meant anything else, but what value would an AGS coin have if it didn't receive DAC dividends ?  I am missing the value proposition.

AGS already does have a password lock function to receive dividends.  AGS funds are locked by the password that locks the wallets you used to donate (they are locked, right?).

If someone compromises your computer and uses a keylogger to take your passwords, then you're in trouble whether AGS is liquid or not, the specifics just change a bit.

There are security problems with crypto, but there are also security problems with precious metals and federal reserve notes.  I think it's just that not as many people are as far along the learning curve for crypto security yet.

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: The posibillity to make AGS liquid in the "near" future!
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2014, 11:30:11 PM »

AGS already does have a password lock function to receive dividends.  AGS funds are locked by the password that locks the wallets you used to donate (they are locked, right?).

If someone compromises your computer and uses a keylogger to take your passwords, then you're in trouble whether AGS is liquid or not, the specifics just change a bit.

There are security problems with crypto, but there are also security problems with precious metals and federal reserve notes.  I think it's just that not as many people are as far along the learning curve for crypto security yet.

Oh there is a password function ?  I should look into it.  I think the fact that I've been on the internet 20 years and don't recall ever having a virus even when I didn't have virus scanners has made me feel overly secure... I didn't even look for it.  So much to learn.

Regardless, software is a fragile thing compared to assets that you mention... and there is rarely a 'do over' option.  I agree about learning curves etc, but the reality is there is just so much that can go wrong.

For instance I've had to fight the multibit software multiple times trying to get it to work with my wallet.  I think paper wallets are the way to go for any amounts that are truly substantial.  Then the problem comes up when you want to access the paper wallet.....

As an example of cryptocurrencies being fragile, I once exported my addresses in the original bitcoind and thought I had a backup of my private key.  Then my HD crashed and I found out the 'export' function was not what I had assumed.  Not a good way to learn.

Oddly enough it worked out because I only got around to data recovery when btc hit 1k USD +...  Now my investments after that are a different story. :(  Lets just say Bitshares or bust ;)
I speak for myself and only myself.

 

Google+