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Offline Stan

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BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 21, 2014, 03:47:37 AM »

OK, the "BitShares PTS2" proposal (below) is now off the table and I'm closing this thread.

This discussed the potential of using a "soft fork" to allow the market to choose whether a protoDAC which comes with its own built-in promotion fund could out-compete one that didn't.

While intellectually gratifying (to me anyway), it turned out to be too hard to explain and would undoubtedly lead to more confusion if we continued to advocate it. 
The winning post argument here was simply "Keep it simple, stupid."

See the newest thread for the current default proposal and let's move on to debate the merits of that.

Thanks for everyone's energetic input.

:)





Announcing BitShares PTS2

Shortly after we released PTS in November, Bytemaster reserved the right to release an upgrade when the technology was available.  That time has arrived.  As soon as DPOS finishes its validation trials and BitShares XT is released, we will turn our attention to PTS2 (which, thanks to the new DPOS toolkit, should be rather easy to do.)  Here's what we propose:

PTS2 would honor all shares of PTS one-for-one, with the remaining unmined PTS shares mapped to a "reverse angel" marketing fund to help grow the value of PTS2 - and all its children.

The value proposition PTS2 has over PTS is as follows:
  • Much faster transaction times.
  • A profitable business model.
  • All the other benefits DPOS has over mining.
  • A million dollar promotion fund to help grow its value for those who hold its shares.
(Of course, the dollar value of this fund depends on whether the market value of PTS2 is greater or less than the value of PTS.  Assuming that it is the same, the fund will be worth over a million dollars. As the use of this promotional fund begins to take affect, the value could increase to, say, 2 million dollars.  Or it could be worth zero.  It depends on what we come up with together.)

We could use a normal hard fork and simply ask the exchanges to pause and switch to the new chain, or we could use a "soft fork" strategy where the two chains coexist until one is the clear winner in the free market:

PTS and PTS2 would compete in the free market. 
Every PTS share holder would get a PTS2 snapshot share as well.
It is up to the free market to decide which shares to hold and which to sell.
It is also up to each developer to decide which PTS version they will honor.

We would sell PTS and honor PTS2, but everyone is free to choose otherwise.

This is all we have settled on so far (as our recommended approach).  We turn to the community for ideas about how to best use a genesis block "reverse angel address" to grow the value of a new DAC - especially a Grand ProtoDAC that is likely to get you shares in many other DACs that you can already see being developed in real time.  Clearly, anything we do to increase demand for any of the children also increased demand for the parent - so there are many, many ways to do this.

We will be sharing some ideas of our own, but are very interested in getting community ideas and buy-in.  The final plan will undoubtedly be a hybrid of the best of the best.

A lot of ideas have been discussed and debated over the past few months.  Here's where we all can post the ones we like liked best - and hammer out a promo-plan that most of us can whole-heartedly support.

In the absence of consensus, the default would probably be to simply never mine the rest.


Key Points Summary

We need to upgrade PTS because people have been complaining about how slow it is.
The logical upgrade that solves everything is DPOS.

DPOS frees up a windfall of 300,000 PTS no longer needed to pay miners.

We need to decide what to do with this windfall.

Not mining them (i.e. burning them) would give a 15% one time benefit to PTS holders
(even though it was AGS donations that made the DPOS breakthrough possible.)

We think those savings from that R&D should be used to benefit everyone in our industry.

By calling attention to PTS and all the things its good for, we generate demand that we hope will grow the value of PTS and its children and therefore of AGS far more than any other plan we have heard.

PTS will climb on coinmarketcap as others learn what it is good for.  Other BitShares DACs will appear there too as the promotions generates demand for them.

This forum has been asking for two more things, we can achieve as part of this solution:
  • Increased effort to reach out to other communities and attract more supporters
  • A desire by this community to be seen as generous
We listened.

We came up with a plan that would do all of the above, as requested by this forum.

We offer it as an alternative you can embrace or reject.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 01:45:53 AM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Simeon II

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 04:12:51 AM »
Announcing BitShares PTS2
...PTS2 will honor all shares of PTS one-for-one, with the remaining unmined PTS shares mapped to a "reverse angel" marketing fund to help grow the value of PTS2 - and all its children.'''



!!!!Just be advised!!!!

‘PTS2 will honor all shares of PTS one-for-one, with the remaining unmined PTS shares mapped to a "reverse angel" marketing fund to help grow the value of PTS2 - and all its children.’

This is the new convolute way of saying –“Invictus will get those shares and we will do whatever we decide to do with them.”


!!!!Just be advised!!!!

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 04:16:45 AM »

We will offer the best possible product we can devise.
The market will choose whether to accept it.

 :)
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Offline bodenliu

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 04:21:29 AM »
wait a minute...pts and pts2 will coexist? only pts holders could snapshot pts2 and they will have two coins in hand(say a PTS worth $3.5, now he may have a $3 worth PTS and a $1 worth PTS2) , what about AGS holders? I bought lots of PTSs but donated every of it to get AGS, now I'm thinking it unfair...

one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 04:27:09 AM by bodenliu »

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 04:29:34 AM »
wait a minute...pts and pts2 will coexist? only pts holders could snapshot pts2 and they will have two coins in hand(say a PTS worth $3.5, now he may have a $3 worth PTS and a $1 worth PTS2) , what about AGS holders? I bought lots of PTSs but donated every of it to get AGS, now I'm thinking it unfair...

Both PTS and AGS benefit by growing public awareness of the industry they are spawning together.  PTS has been benefitting from the work made possible by AGS donations.  AGS donors will benefit by the industry-wide publicity generated by the business plan and marketing strategy of PTS2.   It doesn't matter which contributes something to the industry, both benefit because both have an equal share in all their children.  Just like any good marriage.

 :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 04:35:19 AM »
Quote
one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?

Good point.  The easiest way is to do as you suggest and wait for AGS to be complete.  But I hope we don't have to wait that long, so I'm open to other ideas...


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline muse-umum

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 04:39:15 AM »
Quote
one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?

Good point.  The easiest way is to do as you suggest and wait for AGS to be complete.  But I hope we don't have to wait that long, so I'm open to other ideas...




How will you take the PTS2 converted from the current PTS donation?

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 04:42:22 AM »
Quote
one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?

Good point.  The easiest way is to do as you suggest and wait for AGS to be complete.  But I hope we don't have to wait that long, so I'm open to other ideas...




How will you take the PTS2 converted from the current PTS donation?

Like any other snapshot.  Like the XTS that are now in that trust.  All the babies stay in the trust with the donated parents and can only be used to advance the BitShares industry.

So there will be BTC, PTS, XTS, PTS2, ME, LOTTO, DNS, MUSIC - all reserved for use in the Cause.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 04:47:36 AM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Simeon II

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 04:44:09 AM »
Quote
one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?

Good point.  The easiest way is to do as you suggest and wait for AGS to be complete.  But I hope we don't have to wait that long, so I'm open to other ideas...

What???  Are you drunk or you just post incomprehensible non-sense on purpose?

Offline sudo

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 04:47:32 AM »
Quote
one more thing, would you still accpet PTS donate for AGS? or the PTS2 thing will come after the end of AGS donating?

Good point.  The easiest way is to do as you suggest and wait for AGS to be complete.  But I hope we don't have to wait that long, so I'm open to other ideas...

what?  1pts(old)= 1pts(old)+1pts2.0(new)  at the same time   1pts(old) can donate  AGS?
it's unfair to the early donated AGS


« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:04:46 AM by sudo »

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 04:58:36 AM »
All DACs have snapshots that honor something.
Upgrade DACs honor their predecessor.
New DACs honor their industry parent which honor PTS/AGS.
If a DAC is the first in a new industry, it honors PTS/AGS directly, just like XT did on February 28.

When an upgrade occurs it can be done either by hard fork if there is delegate consensus or as an alternative chain if not. 

When an alternative chain is offered, everybody gets shares in both via the snapshot mechanism.  As long as there are users for both, they can co-exist like Coke Classic and New Coke a few decades ago.  The expectation is that one or the other of the products will win and the other will fade to zero - but that is up to the market to decide.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline adistman

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 05:04:10 AM »
stan, I just want to know that the agser whether could get the pts2.0 through their amount of ags?
PTS:PgyN7fJ5d9bCkcQLUXxoaQ87KvT9ZQMqus
BTC:18CrpUSta2KpPhuP3XGbSSdEYgBzEoTaH7

Offline sudo

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 05:11:55 AM »
Announcing BitShares PTS2

Shortly after we released PTS in November, Bytemaster reserved the right to release an upgrade when the technology was available.  That time has arrived.  As soon as DPOS finishes its validation trials and BitShares XT is released, we will turn our attention to PTS2 (which, thanks to the new DPOS toolkit, should be rather easy to do.)

PTS2 will honor all shares of PTS one-for-one, with the remaining unmined PTS shares mapped to a "reverse angel" marketing fund to help grow the value of PTS2 - and all its children.

The value proposition PTS2 has over PTS is as follows:
  • Much faster transaction times.
  • A profitable business model.
  • All the other benefits DPOS has over mining.
  • A million dollar promotion fund to help grow its value for those who hold its shares.
(Of course, the dollar value of this fund depends on whether the market value of PTS2 is greater or less than the value of PTS.  Assuming that it is the same, the fund will be worth over a million dollars. As the use of this promotional fund begins to take affect, the value could increase to, say, 2 million dollars.  Or it could be worth zero.  It depends on what we come up with together.)

PTS and PTS2 will compete in the free market. 
Every PTS share holder will get a PTS2 snapshot share as well.
It is up to the free market to decide which shares to hold and which to sell.
It is also up to each developer to decide which PTS version they will honor.

We plan to sell PTS and honor PTS2, but everyone is free to choose otherwise.

This is all we have settled on so far.  We turn to the community for ideas about how to best use a genesis block "reverse angel address" to grow the value of a new DAC - especially a Grand ProtoDAC that is likely to get you shares in many other DACs that you can already see being developed in real time.  Clearly, anything we do to increase demand for any of the children also increased demand for the parent - so there are many, many ways to do this.

We will be sharing some ideas of our own, but are very interested in getting community ideas and buy-in.  The final plan will undoubtedly be a hybrid of the best of the best.

A lot of ideas have been discussed and debated over the past few months.  Here's where we all can post the ones we like liked best - and hammer out a promo-plan that most of us can whole-heartedly support.

1.BTS X released & Dpos verified
2.if  AGS donate is not finished  then danate pause
3.PTS2.0(DPos) use Proof of burn
① set a new address
② give PTSer some time such as two weeks
③ PTSer  donate PTS1.0  to the “new address”
④ PTS2.0  honor  the donater in  the list
⑤ the rerest PTS holded by community for development
4 AGS donate restart with PTS2.0
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:14:45 AM by sudo »

Offline muse-umum

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Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 05:12:33 AM »
All DACs have snapshots that honor something.
Upgrade DACs honor their predecessor.
New DACs honor their industry parent which honor PTS/AGS.
If a DAC is the first in a new industry, it honors PTS/AGS directly, just like XT did on February 28.

For example,

PTS2 release date is Jun 15th when AGS donation is still undergoing. A new DAC is going to take the snapshot on Jun 21st. Is it possible for this new DAC to honor AGS/PTS2 rather than AGS/PTS ?

Offline graffenwalder

Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 05:18:49 AM »
All DACs have snapshots that honor something.
Upgrade DACs honor their predecessor.
New DACs honor their industry parent which honor PTS/AGS.
If a DAC is the first in a new industry, it honors PTS/AGS directly, just like XT did on February 28.

When an upgrade occurs it can be done either by hard fork if there is delegate consensus or as an alternative chain if not. 

When an alternative chain is offered, everybody gets shares in both via the snapshot mechanism.  As long as there are users for both, they can co-exist like Coke Classic and New Coke a few decades ago.  The expectation is that one or the other of the products will win and the other will fade to zero - but that is up to the market to decide.

Been sitting quietly on the sidelines watching this forum everyday. Recently there was a thread: Today I loose confidence in I3. I thought come on guys, just be patient some great products will come. And so far your logic always made sense.

But the coexistence of PTS and PTS2 just seems like a quick money scheme, the fact that you're considering to do this even before the AGS funding is over, makes me think you're having funding problems. Another million would be enough for now, but what will you come up with, when those funds have dried up?

For investors your making the deal more complicated than it already is, now they have to choose between holding PTS and PTS2, because DAC's can choose to honor either one

PTS will drop from the top 10 coin market list, because it has effectively lost half it's value.

Sorry to be cynical, I still believe in I3, but this just doesn't make any sense.
 

 

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