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Offline NewMine

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Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« on: May 27, 2014, 05:57:18 AM »

Most of the time I visit the forum here, I spend my hours of perusing through the General discussion board and Bank and Exchange now. With PTS going bye bye I don't see a need to visit there anymore. Today by chance I stumbled upon LottoShares. I follow a few people here and saw they posted in a new board labeled LottoShares. LottoShares it seems is going to have a snapshot at the end of this month and honor PTS and AGS with 10% each. It also is going to give shares to top BTC and Doge coin holders. Cool right? What I saw next was quite surprising. MMC holders were to get 10% and user FreeTrade was the man behind Lottoshares.

For those of you unaware, FreeTrade is the developer of MEC (MemoryCoin), and MMC (MemoryCoin 2.0).  He was also paid to help create PTS. MEC was a failed coin (I'll let you decide why if you are inclined to search). In releasing MMC, FreeTrade decided to airdrop to PTS holders and "contributors" to MEC in a premine genesis block. It was later discovered that FreeTrade gave himself 207,000 MMC of a 760,000 premine that was to be split amongst PTS holders and MEC "contributors". He never disclosed that he would receive 27% out of the gate.  He also refused to admit it, until multiple members of the community put continued pressure on him. In the meantime, he used these coins to further attain more MMC through 2 blockchain paid positions.

These paid positions are what made the MMC coin unique and different to any other. Each position was filled by an election every 20 blocks to those who got the most votes. Each coin you held was equal to one vote.  You can see where this is going... FreeTrade gave himself enough coin to vote himself into positions and not be touched. Not very democratic and put the coin in a compromised state.

What is significant about all this is that here we are again. FreeTrade using an airdrop to help mask that he is receiving a large amount of the "new" coin. He is airdropping to a coin where he is most likely one of the larger holders and his holdings were not "earned" through a fair distribution, traded for or bought on an exchange. 

You may say, "10% is beans and doesn't amount to much."

I would answer, "he is also airdropping to hundreds of thousands of BTC addresses and DogeCoin addresses. What is to stop him from giving himself boat loads hidden in those coin addresses too?"
After all, that's exactly what he did with MMC. This doesn't mean that he is doing this either. With that many addresses, how could you possibly figure anything out. This is where the beauty lies in this clever scam, airdrop your premine to yourself surrounded by thousands of money hungry hand out takers who only care about "their" free coin and what they can get for it.

Just beware and do you due diligence. It may be all good, but based on what has transpired before, it doesn't seem likely. Not to mention, my tiny post about this was immediately deleted by FreeTrade in the child board Lottoshares..

Offline solaaire

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 07:03:15 AM »
It was later discovered that FreeTrade gave himself 207,000 MMC of a 760,000 premine that was to be split amongst PTS holders and MEC "contributors". He never disclosed that he would receive 27% out of the gate.  He also refused to admit it, until multiple members of the community put continued pressure on him. In the meantime, he used these coins to further attain more MMC through 2 blockchain paid positions.

fucked up if true

anyone else care to weigh in on this?

Offline liondani

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 07:59:12 AM »
it is not a good start for Dacs!  Remember also that at first he don't wanted the AGS participation.Remember also that he changed his mind and canceled the project after 3 days...  lol...  now he changed his mind again...  newmine concerns make absolute sense!  Even if it is not a SCAM Bytemaster and Stan MUST take care on how to prevent future DAC scams because even we as a community don't loose money because we purchase "free" money we will loose also at last because bad reputation will occur on our ecosystem at the end...

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Offline pc

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 08:03:46 AM »
Just beware and do you due diligence. It may be all good, but based on what has transpired before, it doesn't seem likely.

Exactly what I thought when I read the LottoShares snapshot announcement. There's several points that are fishy about the whole concept:

How will the numbers be drawn and prizes awarded?

As soon as a new block is generated, its hash will be signed by FreeTrade. The signed hash is used as a seed for the random numbers.

IOW: the creator of LottoShares, who is most likely also the biggest stakeholder, has at least some control over the "random" numbers used by a lottery!


Who will own the shares?

10% will be proportionally distributed to MemoryCoin (MMC) holders
10% will be proportionally distributed to ProtoShares (PTS) holders
10% will be proportionally distributed to AngelShares (AGS) holders

30% will be targeted at the public addresses of individuals who can be helpful to LottoShares DAC (devs, exchanges, service providers, marketeers etc - email [email protected] to make a pitch, full list to be provided at launch)

It is unknown how much of the 30% for "devs" etc. are allocated for FreeTrade himself.


This first 60% is vested and funds will not be valid for (90 + rand(365))days - where the pseudo-random component is seeded on the address.

Again, the author is in a position to control when he will be able to sell his own allocations, while everyone else has to wait.


20% will be airdropped on the top 1,000,000 Bitcoin addresses (Block 302,000)
20% will be airdropped on the top 250,000 Dogecoin addresses (Block 232,000)

This 40% will be valid for use immediately, this will be non-proportional, providing a small amount to each BTC/DOGE holder regardless of the size of their holding.

Again, the author is in a position to control how much is "airdropped" to his own addresses.


Now, I'll be receiving free LottoShares, so I'm not complaining. But I'll be damned if I invest a single satoshi into that project.
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Offline liondani

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 08:13:16 AM »
it would be the ultimate disaster for bitshares reputation IF the first DAC release would be a SCAM and most importantly "BACKED UP" by 3I (marketing wise) like Stan allready promised !!! Guess what happens after that...  Everybody (including me) would think...  they are both scammers...

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« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:17:51 AM by liondani »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 08:37:34 AM »
it is not a good start for Dacs!  Remember also that at first he don't wanted the AGS participation.Remember also that he changed his mind and canceled the project after 3 days...  lol...  now he changed his mind again...  newmine concerns make absolute sense!  Even if it is not a SCAM Bytemaster and Stan MUST take care on how to prevent future DAC scams because even we as a community don't loose money because we purchase "free" money we will loose also at last because bad reputation will occur on our ecosystem at the end...

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Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 08:44:42 AM »
The Lottoshares DAC Denny/Hackfisher is doing is honoring MMC. Why?

Answering my own question: LottoShares is what MMC developer (former Protoshares maintainer) Freetrade is doing, nothing officially supported by Invictus. Of course he is honouring his own coin....
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:49:50 AM by delulo »

Offline jwiz168

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 08:51:46 AM »
The Lottoshares DAC Denny/Hackfisher is doing is honoring MMC. Why?

Lottoshares DAC is different from Bitshare Lotto.

Offline liondani

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 08:58:22 AM »

Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.


I agree. I only try to say that we must be extra  careful  with the first DAC releases to win the crypto communitys confidence and to build the best possible reputation in the BEGINNING, it's very crucial!  Imagine the big scams for bitcoin took place before it would go mainstream...  I even suggest that the first DAC release must come from 3I or at least from people/company's  that have in general a good reputation...


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Offline fuzzy

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 09:04:23 AM »

Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.


I agree. I only try to say that we must be extra  careful  with the first DAC releases to win the crypto communitys confidence and to build the best possible reputation in the BEGINNING, it's very crucial!  Imagine the big scams for bitcoin took place before it would go mainstream...  I even suggest that the first DAC release must come from 3I or at least from people/company's  that have in general a good reputation...


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Very good point.  I am planning to start Dev/Community voice sessions for DAC devs who are trying to build solid products...the best thing I can think of would be for the community to know about the legitimate vs the illegitimate DAC proposals.  But there again it all depends on how much value the community wants to bring to it.   
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Offline gyhy

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 09:15:02 AM »
 :) +5%

Offline FreeTrade

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 09:24:05 AM »
Newmine is a crank and has been hounding me ever since I called him greedy and stupid to discourage others from joining him in his short-sighted behavior with MemoryCoin. He has lied about me many times and his statements continue to be deliberately skewed and misleading. He is continuing to conduct a personal butthurt vendetta.

MemoryCoin 1 was a public project that everyone could take part in. MemoryCoin 2 genesis was discussed in public and everyone was free to take part in that discussion. Salaries in MemoryCoin 2 are voted on in public, are transparent and are a major feature of the coin.

LottoShares is a new project. It is a DAC of which I could choose to keep 100% if I so decided. That's the same as founding any other corporation. I'm giving away the vast majority of it, over 98% to encourage participation.

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Offline gamey

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 09:37:05 AM »

Yea, this whole thing strikes me as absurd.  No doubt with all those airdrops freetrade will be able to sneak in extra equity if he chooses, but he could just as well give himself more of it anyway.  I'm not really getting this..  It is a corporation, not a currency.
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Offline toast

Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 01:23:07 PM »
MMC premine was dumb.

Complaining about an extra ~0.3% premine on top of an existing 30% premine is even more dumb.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 01:25:29 PM »
it is not a good start for Dacs!  Remember also that at first he don't wanted the AGS participation.Remember also that he changed his mind and canceled the project after 3 days...  lol...  now he changed his mind again...  newmine concerns make absolute sense!  Even if it is not a SCAM Bytemaster and Stan MUST take care on how to prevent future DAC scams because even we as a community don't loose money because we purchase "free" money we will loose also at last because bad reputation will occur on our ecosystem at the end...

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D using Tapatalk

Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.

We discussed this topic recently on a Chinese thread,
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4730.msg60771#msg60771
but in case you missed it, here is the question I asked:

Without making any value judgements about any particular developer, what should the BitShares community's policy be about promoting developers who (wisely) choose to honor PTS and AGS?

We have said in the past that, as long as there is not an legal/ethical/philosophical conflict, any DAC that honors the community will be honored by the community.

My absurd example was that "Slavetrader, DAC" would probably not qualify.  [https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2166.msg25947#msg25947]

Should we be involved in vetting 3rd party developers?  Or should we just be appreciative of anyone who thinks enough of this community to seek its support?

All right. I'll imagine this for you.

Say,I developed a coin called "JobCoin",intend to provide a information business that let people find jobs and let company hire people,they should use my "JobCoin" to pay to post their information.

I premine 100%,then give 50% to PTS and AGS (very good,right ? I'm a good guy at the eyes of 3i).But,hey,this 50% has to be locked for 3 month to longer time before  it will be trade able.

Now, by the power of 3i promotion , JobCoin successfully get on all major trading platforms.Since it's promoted by 3i,then the market would love this coin from the start,my 50% coin can sell at a good price.

After selling the coin,I get say ....200K USD easily.Then , I can get off to the sunset and enjoy some quality time with my loaded wallet.

And then , I don't need to maintain this coin anymore. But hey , the community can curse me .That's my wrong doing ,I can take it .

The problem is ,the community won't just hate me . They see this "JobCoin" as 3i's product,no matter how you explain the concept of "3rd party".For example , during that time Feb. 28th which lead to PTS's price boost , some big time MMC dealer also said that MMC is a "3i related product,and because PTS has good news,MMC is bound to rise."  That's the real relationship between 3i and 3rd party DAC.They ignore the "3rd" part.

So,if you say I just need to give PTS and AGS a share,you would support me no matter what ,then I think more developer would join this pool. The problem is ,
if 3i can really separate itself from the potential harm or bad act by the 3rd party DAC 3i's promoting ?

I think the 3rd party != full immunity for 3i,at least on a public image level. If 3rd party DAC do good, 3i will benefited. But what if other wise ?

PS. I just image the worst way of doing the wrong thing,not that will surely happen,not that anyone done this or can do this.
But,  Can I do this ? That's the real question.

You have presented a valid concern.
Sooner or later something bad like this could happen.

The alternative is to give up on teaming with many great 3rd Party DACs.
It is generally not possible to know the difference in advance.

If we did a small (affordable) amount of due diligence, this could make matters worse. Then there would be an expectation that we are guaranteeing a perfect outcome. And no such guarantee is possible.

The choice seems to be: 
Support no 3rd Party DACs.
Support all 3rd Party DACs.

As soon as we decline one, the expectation is that we are smart enough to decline all bad and accept all good.  A slippery slope?

Do you see any better alternatives?

Given that an endorsement is a powerful incentive for third parties to honor PTS/AGS
but endorsing a scam would do serious damage to the BitShares brand...

What should be this community's policy about endorsing third party DACs in general?

« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:28:33 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

 

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