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Offline gamey

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Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« on: June 09, 2014, 12:45:45 AM »


Does anyone think this hurts their property rights?

The idea is as a shareholder there would be some vote you would have to take part of every X time or your shares would be removed. This would also work great on top of air drops.  I think it'd make the system more responsive etc. Less likely for a minority to have too much power due to apathy of the majority.  In the end I think it could be a better proposition to those who wish to own a DAC.

I'm only partially trolling.

Thoughts ?
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Offline toast

Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 01:11:22 AM »
Well there is already an inactivity fee after 1 year. Taking away shares for not voting is equivalent to taking away shares for not moving your stake.

Is 1 year too long?
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Offline jae208

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 02:07:40 AM »
1 year is good enough
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Offline mas

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 03:07:33 PM »
I hold some Bitshares PTS as a long term investment, and I don't plan to be actively involved. Came upon this thread by chance. Could someone explain, or link to an explanation, of what votes you are discussing?

Seems unfair to punish silent long term investors by confiscation.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2014, 03:09:34 PM »
Its a 5% inactivity fee .. no confiscation
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Offline mas

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2014, 03:11:18 PM »
Well, 5% fee for not doing anything, or confiscating 5% of your account, comes out at the same.

Can anyone post a link or explanation on how this will operate?

Offline xeroc

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2014, 03:13:34 PM »
Its not there yet .. still on the todolist of github afair ..
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Offline toast

Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2014, 03:14:19 PM »
Well, 5% fee for not doing anything, or confiscating 5% of your account, comes out at the same.

Can anyone post a link or explanation on how this will operate?

This doesn't affect PTS. This is for future DACs only, and should be made clear by each individual DAC developer.
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2014, 03:15:37 PM »
Well, 5% fee for not doing anything, or confiscating 5% of your account, comes out at the same.

Can anyone post a link or explanation on how this will operate?

http://bitshares.org/faq/

It is not for PTS

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What fees are charged to users of BitShares XT?

A small percentage fee is assessed for every trade on the exchange, a 5% margin call fee is assessed to every user subject to a margin call, and a 5% inactivity fee is assessed to every address that has had no activity for a full year.

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Offline mas

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2014, 03:20:29 PM »
Thanks

Offline gamey

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2014, 03:37:30 PM »
Well, 5% fee for not doing anything, or confiscating 5% of your account, comes out at the same.

Can anyone post a link or explanation on how this will operate?

I just made a post discussing the idea.  Don't panic please.  As I start to wrap my head around this stuff, I come up with more ideas. I just posted to stir up a discussion.

Toast - I did not know there was an inactivity fee being implemented. To give anything a serious comparison we'd have to come up with specific parameters.  I need to read more about inactivity fee but it likely is more reasonable than my all or nothing approach. ;)

Mas - As far as what vote I am talking about...  This would be for any DAC.  If you voted for board members, or even manually switching a delegate vote.  The idea is to enforce some level of participation.  The neat thing about DACs is any rule that can be implemented in code could be part of a DAC.  The other nice thing is that if you remove shares of those who don't vote, you can clean up outcome of the airdrop.  (Although I am not convinced this is actually as useful as it might seem at first glance...)

« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 03:40:20 PM by gamey »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2014, 03:44:05 PM »
The details are that that as long as you move your funds once per year... at the expense of a normal TRX fee you will not be charged 5%.

This proves ownership, allows the network to recapture 'lost keys', and helps clean up delegate votes.   

This also provides an opportunity for increased privacy because all money is moving frequently others don't know if transfers are to your self or to someone else.
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2014, 03:45:28 PM »
+5% for privacy .. havent considered that part yet ;)
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Offline mas

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 05:55:53 PM »
The details are that that as long as you move your funds once per year... at the expense of a normal TRX fee you will not be charged 5%.

This proves ownership, allows the network to recapture 'lost keys', and helps clean up delegate votes.   

This also provides an opportunity for increased privacy because all money is moving frequently others don't know if transfers are to your self or to someone else.

The arguments above have their positive merits. This however will disadvantage silent long term holders, who might not have the technical knowledge, time, or interest to continually remember to shuffle around shares in various DACs. I can imagine that many years down the road, current Bitshares PTS and AGS holders will have shares/coins in multiple DACs, and this burden of having to remember to move them around once a year, can become onerous if you have multiple coins/shares.

5% seems somewhat high, perhaps a lower inactivity fee would balance your positive arguments, and my protection to long term holders without knowledge/time/ability to move things around.

Some (not necessarily me, but maybe) are in this for the long term, and would prefer to have a long term buy and hold without needing to move things around. The inactivity fee burdens those, and perhaps rewards those with shorter term horizons that might shuffle things faster.

Offline Mrrr

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Re: Forcing people to lose their shares if they don't vote.
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 06:57:38 PM »
I'm going to post a comment here that is perhaps not entirely OT.

According to Bytemaster the act of moving funds around is beneficial to the network.

The "silent long term holders, who might not have the technical knowledge, time, or interest to continually remember to shuffle around shares in various DACs" are exactly the people that should be negatively incentived to actively care for the network, rather than sit on their money and passively watch it grow.

Keyhotee (afaik) is a possible solution for the myriad of online holdings one will acquire over the years.

Up the inactivity fee to 50% for all I care.

Thomas Piketty anyone? :)

 

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