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Offline tonyk

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DACs are for those who need freedom.
One of the frivolous things the governments and big corporations do is add taxes and fees on everything you can imagine… Here is a list of the fees that you will have to pay to participate in our DACs. We keep them to a minimum as you will see:


A. Other parties fees to acquire BTS

- (international) wire transfer fee 50$ (paid to the bank we do not control that)

-exchange deposit fee (paid to the exchange we do not control that)

- transaction fee (to buy BTC paid to the exchange we do not control that);

-transfer fee to the other exchange that actually sells BTS(to BTC miners we do not control that)

- transaction fee (to buy BTS with your BTC paid to the exchange we do not control that);


B. Our fees
So you are a happy owner of BTS, here we come…
If you actually want to use your BTS for something expect


-transaction fee – when you trade;

-inactivity fee – when you do not trade;

-lazy trader’s fee *1 – hidden fee when you do not match precisely the bid ask price

-liquidation fee – when you trade but you lose too much!

-inappropriate currency fee (when you do not have money in the appropriate currency to pay your other fees)

-delegate registration fee (if you think you are a smart ass and can get some of the other poples fees)

Coming soon:
-Lazy voter’s fee (addition to the inactivity fee for those that do not trade, or trade but not vote)


C.  More other parties fees

If you are not lucky enough to end your day with bitUSD (hopefully tradable for USD directly) you will have to experience the fees in A. in reverse order….




*1 – if you want to buy 10 bitUSD at 1.00 bitUSD/BTS and there are 2 ask orders - one for 5 bitUSD @ 1.00 bitUSD/BTS and another for  5 bitUSD @ 1.03 bitUSD/BTS – to avoid the lazy trader’s fee you must place 2 separate order for 5 bitUSD each.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

 +5% ... need to start gathering info for BTS X info site soon
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline tonyk

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Quote from: toast
+5% ... need to start gathering info for BTS X info site soon

????
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

Quote from: toast
+5% ... need to start gathering info for BTS X info site soon

????

Sorry, I skimmed this and it looked like you were listing fee *advantages* over other services. So I read "other parties fee to acquire BTS" like it is lower than fee to get equivalent amount into traditional exchange.

Lol. I'm fried. sorry
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline luckybit

DACs are for those who need freedom.
One of the frivolous things the governments and big corporations do is add taxes and fees on everything you can imagine… Here is a list of the fees that you will have to pay to participate in our DACs. We keep them to a minimum as you will see:


A. Other parties fees to acquire BTS

- (international) wire transfer fee 50$ (paid to the bank we do not control that)

-exchange deposit fee (paid to the exchange we do not control that)

- transaction fee (to buy BTC paid to the exchange we do not control that);

-transfer fee to the other exchange that actually sells BTS(to BTC miners we do not control that)

- transaction fee (to buy BTS with your BTC paid to the exchange we do not control that);


B. Our fees
So you are a happy owner of BTS, here we come…
If you actually want to use your BTS for something expect


-transaction fee – when you trade;

-inactivity fee – when you do not trade;

-lazy trader’s fee *1 – hidden fee when you do not match precisely the bid ask price

-liquidation fee – when you trade but you lose too much!

-inappropriate currency fee (when you do not have money in the appropriate currency to pay your other fees)

-delegate registration fee (if you think you are a smart ass and can get some of the other poples fees)

Coming soon:
-Lazy voter’s fee (addition to the inactivity fee for those that do not trade, or trade but not vote)


C.  More other parties fees

If you are not lucky enough to end your day with bitUSD (hopefully tradable for USD directly) you will have to experience the fees in A. in reverse order….




*1 – if you want to buy 10 bitUSD at 1.00 bitUSD/BTS and there are 2 ask orders - one for 5 bitUSD @ 1.00 bitUSD/BTS and another for  5 bitUSD @ 1.03 bitUSD/BTS – to avoid the lazy trader’s fee you must place 2 separate order for 5 bitUSD each.


Don't forget the capital gains tax.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline bytemaster

Lazy trader's 'fee' is not really a fee.   From a marketing perspective it is best to describe it as "you get exactly what you ask for, no fees".

Perhaps there is an opportunity cost, but who calls that a fee?
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Lazy trader's 'fee' is not really a fee.   From a marketing perspective it is best to describe it as "you get exactly what you ask for, no fees".

Perhaps there is an opportunity cost, but who calls that a fee?

In the non-BTS X world (as you know) only the first one placing the order gets what he asked for, the second party (the bid order in my example) gets the best deal possible. I cannot see what is the big hurdle to make it work it like that, instead of adding yet another revenue stream be it fee or not.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

Lazy trader's 'fee' is not really a fee.   From a marketing perspective it is best to describe it as "you get exactly what you ask for, no fees".

Perhaps there is an opportunity cost, but who calls that a fee?

In the non-BTS X world (as you know) only the first one placing the order gets what he asked for, the second party (the bid order in my example) gets the best deal possible. I cannot see what is the big hurdle to make it work it like that, instead of adding yet another revenue stream be it fee or not.

It has to do with attack vectors on the market and front-running.   Someone is going to front-run you and collect the fees so it might as well be the market itself.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Lazy trader's 'fee' is not really a fee.   From a marketing perspective it is best to describe it as "you get exactly what you ask for, no fees".

Perhaps there is an opportunity cost, but who calls that a fee?

In the non-BTS X world (as you know) only the first one placing the order gets what he asked for, the second party (the bid order in my example) gets the best deal possible. I cannot see what is the big hurdle to make it work it like that, instead of adding yet another revenue stream be it fee or not.

It has to do with attack vectors on the market and front-running.   Someone is going to front-run you and collect the fees so it might as well be the market itself.

We also want to make attacks that 'walk the book' expensive to prevent price manipulation.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Lazy trader's 'fee' is not really a fee.   From a marketing perspective it is best to describe it as "you get exactly what you ask for, no fees".

Perhaps there is an opportunity cost, but who calls that a fee?

In the non-BTS X world (as you know) only the first one placing the order gets what he asked for, the second party (the bid order in my example) gets the best deal possible. I cannot see what is the big hurdle to make it work it like that, instead of adding yet another revenue stream be it fee or not.

It has to do with attack vectors on the market and front-running.   Someone is going to front-run you and collect the fees so it might as well be the market itself.

We also want to make attacks that 'walk the book' expensive to prevent price manipulation.

I do not know how effective your proposal is in stopping what you are trying to prevent -as the ‘attacker’ may have the price adjustment fully automated to avoid paying this ‘penalty’- but the current design is a hurdle and/or penalty  for every buyer/seller of quantities > of probably 25% of the average market order...

Just my 2 cents… it’s your baby raise it anyway you like…
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tonyk

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After double checking here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5178.msg67964#msg67964,
 that there are no artificial limits on the # of orders one can place (which by itself I consider the only right way how things should work)

The so called ‘attacker’ automatically checks the corresponding orders (prices and amounts), adjust his prices and amount and does not suffer any penalty for buying as much as she wants.

Conclusion: The implementation does little to prevent the behavior it is supposed to discourage but all market participants suffer a hurdle (and/or penalty) for every order for quantity bigger than the best corresponding bid/ask order on the market…. 
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

After double checking here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5178.msg67964#msg67964,
 that there are no artificial limits on the # of orders one can place (which by itself I consider the only right way how things should work)

The so called ‘attacker’ automatically checks the corresponding orders (prices and amounts), adjust his prices and amount and does not suffer any penalty for buying as much as she wants.

Conclusion: The implementation does little to prevent the behavior it is supposed to discourage but all market participants suffer a hurdle (and/or penalty) for every order for quantity bigger than the best corresponding bid/ask order on the market….

This attack has been throughly discussed elsewhere... they cannot do what you say because the bids and asks will not be matched as you think.  The highest bid is matched against the lowest ask.  If you attempt to walk the book in ONE BLOCK then your lowest ask will be matched against the highest bid rather than your asks that perfectly matches it.   So to get a 'perfect match' requires you to spread your order over multiple blocks. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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After double checking here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5178.msg67964#msg67964,
 that there are no artificial limits on the # of orders one can place (which by itself I consider the only right way how things should work)

The so called ‘attacker’ automatically checks the corresponding orders (prices and amounts), adjust his prices and amount and does not suffer any penalty for buying as much as she wants.

Conclusion: The implementation does little to prevent the behavior it is supposed to discourage but all market participants suffer a hurdle (and/or penalty) for every order for quantity bigger than the best corresponding bid/ask order on the market….

This attack has been throughly discussed elsewhere... they cannot do what you say because the bids and asks will not be matched as you think.  The highest bid is matched against the lowest ask.  If you attempt to walk the book in ONE BLOCK then your lowest ask will be matched against the highest bid rather than your asks that perfectly matches it.   So to get a 'perfect match' requires you to spread your order over multiple blocks.

I just think we should think about the experience of the everyday user first, and find the most user friendly way to deal with attacks of any sort.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 01:11:59 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline jae208

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Please I beg you all to keep things as simple as possible. It is impossible to predict and prevent every possible attack. Also, keep in mind that despite all the hours and bright minds behind the project odds are that something won't go as planned.

This kind of reminds me of how Protoshares was supposed to be a cpu only coin and within weeks you were able to mine with GPU. Or how the parameters of BitShares-PTS were meant to make things better but instead caused the adjustment of the difficulty very ineffective.

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Offline fuzzy

Discussions like these would be great for the community mumble sessions.  Just a reminder Dan reserves time for live voice conversations about a range of topics and this one interests me greatly.  Come teach us your perspective and lets see what is "hashed" out? :D
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

 

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