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Offline xeroc

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http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/29yyjm/proofofstake_and_distributed_consensus_are/

Vitalik on reddit:
Quote
That's not quite what I said. I said that every pure PoS system, except a PoS system with trusted chain download sources, can always and forever be taken over by a 51% collusion of the genesis block allocation. If you're willing to accept that, then TaPoS-based systems plus slasher plus some kind of yet-undiscovered transaction aggregation protocol seem to be quite viable, albeit flimsier in certain ways.
Whats TaPoS in ethereum language?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 06:55:00 PM by xeroc »
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Offline toast

Transactions as proof-of-stake... referencing recent block hashes in your transactions to prevent reversing history too far. Dan's brainchild ;)
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Offline bytemaster

Seems like others are having a hard time keeping up with our latest developments as his recent article made no mention of DPOS.  That is perhaps a failure on our part.
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Offline carpet ride

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Seems like others are having a hard time keeping up with our latest developments as his recent article made no mention of DPOS.  That is perhaps a failure on our part.

V's response to DPOS:

[–]vbuterin 1 point 5 minutes ago
I would say its resistance to long-range NaS is the biggest concern, and that's dependent entirely on the implementation. Theoretically DPOS is something that could be layered onto any other PoS algorithm; it's actually a slightly higher-level construction than naive PoS, slasher, TaPoS, etc.
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Offline carpet ride

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Seems like others are having a hard time keeping up with our latest developments as his recent article made no mention of DPOS.  That is perhaps a failure on our part.

V's response to DPOS:

[–]vbuterin 1 point 5 minutes ago
I would say its resistance to long-range NaS is the biggest concern, and that's dependent entirely on the implementation. Theoretically DPOS is something that could be layered onto any other PoS algorithm; it's actually a slightly higher-level construction than naive PoS, slasher, TaPoS, etc.

What is long-range NaS?
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Offline toast

nothing-at-stake letting you build a chain from a long time ago. Like he said, it depends on the implementation and how you provide the underlying long-term security. For us the "difficulty" metric is total chain approval. Again like he said, it is still vulnerable to collusion from 51% of initial stakeholders.
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Offline bytemaster

I made some posts if you can give me an up vote!
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Offline xeroc

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I made some posts if you can give me an up vote!
Sure
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Offline carpet ride

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I made some posts if you can give me an up vote!

I gave you one; Looks like they could use a few more

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/29yyjm/proofofstake_and_distributed_consensus_are/
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Offline bytemaster

Seems like others are having a hard time keeping up with our latest developments as his recent article made no mention of DPOS.  That is perhaps a failure on our part.

V's response to DPOS:

[–]vbuterin 1 point 5 minutes ago
I would say its resistance to long-range NaS is the biggest concern, and that's dependent entirely on the implementation. Theoretically DPOS is something that could be layered onto any other PoS algorithm; it's actually a slightly higher-level construction than naive PoS, slasher, TaPoS, etc.

What is long-range NaS?

Long-range NaS assumes 51% founders have nothing to lose from undermining the chain they created.   It also assumes that the users of the system are robots with no ability to adapt.    Real consensus exists outside the blockchain and the active delegate slate (elected post-genesis) would clearly implement automatic checkpointing anytime participation is high and therefore they wouldn't even look at alternative chains that date back to genesis. 

All the more reason to have wide allocation in genesis like we have with AGS/PTS.

Bottom line, V. has just demonstrated the superiority of DPOS by showing the weaknesses in the other systems.
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Offline cass

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Offline gamey

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Long-range NaS assumes 51% founders have nothing to lose from undermining the chain they created.   It also assumes that the users of the system are robots with no ability to adapt. 

A lot of these anti-POS arguments are based on an assumption of exceptional irrational behavior.  So yes in POS you can mine to 2 forks in parallel but why would anyone do this ?   The NXT guys called him on this too.  Vitalik references altruistic POS block-signers preventing this but it isn't "altruistic" block-signers, they're just block-signers/miners who don't want to destroy the network.  That isn't altruism.

Basically there are 2 parties to me.  Those for network security and those trying to undermine it.  Those trying to undermine it will have to buy a stake and then destroy it while destroying the network.  (In a general sense.)

With Vitalik there are "self-interested miners" who would try to undermine the network that they're invested in.  The good guys are the altruistic miners. It doesn't really jive with my version of reality, but it is a great way for him to frame his argument.  I mean.. who isn't "self-interested".
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Offline Empirical1

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Basically there are 2 parties to me.  Those for network security and those trying to undermine it.  Those trying to undermine it will have to buy a stake and then destroy it while destroying the network.  (In a general sense.)


There's incentive for the existing financial status quo, Central Banks & Banks who are threatened by the rise of crypto-currencies and crypto-equities, to undermine & destroy the networks & thus the competition, the cost isn't too relevant/significant to them at the early stages. No?   

Offline werneo

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Seems like others are having a hard time keeping up with our latest developments as his recent article made no mention of DPOS.  That is perhaps a failure on our part.
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