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Offline Agent86

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New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« on: July 14, 2014, 12:53:15 PM »

I think there are some great ideas for DACs that I3 may or may not implement.  They don't have the time and resources to do everything.  With this in mind, I want to reach out to potential developers who are interested in creating DACs and to people who may be interested in investing.

If there is enough interest I would like to propose a DAC that is essentially the bitshares toolkit with one change. In addition to voting on delegates, shareholders can vote on a separate class called "workers".  Workers are paid via issuance of new shares and must have support from over 50% of the stake.

This allows the DAC to fund the development of new DACs that honor the shareholders.  It will be a more compelling case for our shareholders to be honored in new DACs when we are funding the development.  It is also easier to fund development over time rather than all at once and therefore protects investors.  If this DAC was successful, more ambitious DACs would be worked on.

This DAC would require active shareholders to be most successful so initial distribution should be handled carefully. 
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to create this DAC but I would be happy to invest to fund its creation with anyone who is convincingly able to do it.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 09:53:12 PM by cass »

Offline bytemaster

Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 12:55:48 PM »
When we implement dilution I can easily see requiring 50% approval of a delegate to receive the dilution pay.

As delegates already set their pay rate, it would be a negotiation between the potential worker/delegate and the masses. 

This may be a superior alternative to saying all delegates get paid via dilution.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Stan

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 01:20:37 PM »
I think there are some great ideas for DACs that I3 may or may not implement.  They don't have the time and resources to do everything.  With this in mind, I want to reach out to potential developers who are interested in creating DACs and to people who may be interested in investing.

If there is enough interest I would like to propose a DAC that is essentially the bitshares toolkit with one change. In addition to voting on delegates, shareholders can vote on a separate class called "workers".  Workers are paid via issuance of new shares and must have support from over 50% of the stake.

This allows the DAC to fund the development of new DACs that honor the shareholders.  It will be a more compelling case for our shareholders to be honored in new DACs when we are funding the development.  It is also easier to fund development over time rather than all at once and therefore protects investors.  If this DAC was successful, more ambitious DACs would be worked on.

This DAC would require active shareholders to be most successful so initial distribution should be handled carefully. 
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to create this DAC but I would be happy to invest to fund its creation with anyone who is convincingly able to do it.

Thoughts?

Why not try it and see?

Every DAC needs a promoter just as much as a developer.  The first job of a promoter is to attract a developer by painting the vision and building public (AGS/PTS holder) support for how the developer and promoter team are to be compensated. 

With our toolkit technology, a team can quickly release a protoDAC (empty DAC shell for trading a full DAC before it is released) and therefore get an idea what the market demand for a DAC will be before even starting development.  As development progresses and the market gains confidence in your team, the value of the protoDAC tokens will go up making them more useful for attracting new developers.

So, let no-one ever say, "I can't launch this DAC myself, I'm not technical enough."  Fooey.  It all starts with an entrepreneur with a vision and the ability to sell it to others.  And the same applies for someone who thinks they are not "entrepreneurial" enough.  If you can fund a entrepreneur to find a developer, the three of you are going to go places!

Somebody just needs to be the focal point for others to rally around.  Perhaps that's exactly what you are doing here?

 :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

bitbro

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New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 03:46:11 PM »
I think there are some great ideas for DACs that I3 may or may not implement.  They don't have the time and resources to do everything.  With this in mind, I want to reach out to potential developers who are interested in creating DACs and to people who may be interested in investing.

If there is enough interest I would like to propose a DAC that is essentially the bitshares toolkit with one change. In addition to voting on delegates, shareholders can vote on a separate class called "workers".  Workers are paid via issuance of new shares and must have support from over 50% of the stake.

This allows the DAC to fund the development of new DACs that honor the shareholders.  It will be a more compelling case for our shareholders to be honored in new DACs when we are funding the development.  It is also easier to fund development over time rather than all at once and therefore protects investors.  If this DAC was successful, more ambitious DACs would be worked on.

This DAC would require active shareholders to be most successful so initial distribution should be handled carefully. 
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to create this DAC but I would be happy to invest to fund its creation with anyone who is convincingly able to do it.

Thoughts?

What might the "workers'" jobs and roles be?  I feel that there's canvas you've yet to paint


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Offline Agent86

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 03:52:56 PM »
What might the "workers'" jobs and roles be?  I feel that there's canvas you've yet to paint
The worker would be a developer or development team that is working on a DAC that will honor the shareholders when it is released.  Sorry it wasn't clear, I've talked about similar things before.

Online fluxer555

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 02:18:13 PM »
Wouldn't "DAC Agents" be more appropriate, akin to your name? :P

Offline santaclause102

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 03:44:41 PM »
I think there are some great ideas for DACs that I3 may or may not implement.  They don't have the time and resources to do everything.  With this in mind, I want to reach out to potential developers who are interested in creating DACs and to people who may be interested in investing.

If there is enough interest I would like to propose a DAC that is essentially the bitshares toolkit with one change. In addition to voting on delegates, shareholders can vote on a separate class called "workers".  Workers are paid via issuance of new shares and must have support from over 50% of the stake.

This allows the DAC to fund the development of new DACs that honor the shareholders.  It will be a more compelling case for our shareholders to be honored in new DACs when we are funding the development.  It is also easier to fund development over time rather than all at once and therefore protects investors.  If this DAC was successful, more ambitious DACs would be worked on.

This DAC would require active shareholders to be most successful so initial distribution should be handled carefully. 
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to create this DAC but I would be happy to invest to fund its creation with anyone who is convincingly able to do it.

Thoughts?
Do you imply that the shareholders of this DAC get a (fixed?) percentage of all the DACs that are funded this way? If not where does this "crowd funding DAC" get its value from?
And do you mean that the majority of the shareholders decide on which dev team to fund?
An issue might be that the funds the dev teams receive are not as liquid.... Invictus had the problem that PTS are not very liquid I think.
Also I would have to trust the judgement of the other shareholder which is can be good and bad. 

Offline Agent86

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 12:18:30 AM »
Do you imply that the shareholders of this DAC get a (fixed?) percentage of all the DACs that are funded this way? If not where does this "crowd funding DAC" get its value from?
And do you mean that the majority of the shareholders decide on which dev team to fund?
An issue might be that the funds the dev teams receive are not as liquid.... Invictus had the problem that PTS are not very liquid I think.
Also I would have to trust the judgement of the other shareholder which is can be good and bad.
I believe in shareholder controlled spending, whether that is determining dividends, or dilution, or determining where the money goes.  This is how real companies work and I think if we want to appeal to serious investors this type of arrangement will be most appealing.  The more stake you own the more power you have over how the company allocates resources.  With this in mind, the idea of the social consensus is perhaps not as cut and dry and maybe the social consensus doesn't fully account for distribution via dilution.  But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done or that the market won't accept it.

My first approximation would be that we give a good amount in the original DAC to AGS/PTS, maybe 35%/35% with 30% to initial investors.  We need active shareholders for this to work, so people must actively claim their stake or after a certain reasonable time it expires.  This way we don't give too much stake to those who have no interest.  I think the market would accept this as honoring the social consensus.  From there we could see this DAC as primarily a ProtoDAC for a new family of DACs that honor the original.  There would be no specific obligation to further honor AGS/PTS in DACs that were funded by this DAC.  That said, there still may be a reason to do so and it is not precluded, and in some situations there might be better distributions than completely honoring the ProtoDAC.

As far as the shares not being liquid, I think you would be pleasantly surprised.  We may need to bring in new investment capital as we grow, but I would be happy to take a lead in finding investors and making sure that developers who need money to pay their bills have investors ready to buy their shares.  Most startups don't have super "liquid" shares but they still find eager investment capital as they grow and prove themselves.

Offline Agent86

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 12:28:36 AM »
Why not try it and see?

Every DAC needs a promoter just as much as a developer.  The first job of a promoter is to attract a developer by painting the vision and building public (AGS/PTS holder) support for how the developer and promoter team are to be compensated. 

With our toolkit technology, a team can quickly release a protoDAC (empty DAC shell for trading a full DAC before it is released) and therefore get an idea what the market demand for a DAC will be before even starting development.  As development progresses and the market gains confidence in your team, the value of the protoDAC tokens will go up making them more useful for attracting new developers.

So, let no-one ever say, "I can't launch this DAC myself, I'm not technical enough."  Fooey.  It all starts with an entrepreneur with a vision and the ability to sell it to others.  And the same applies for someone who thinks they are not "entrepreneurial" enough.  If you can fund a entrepreneur to find a developer, the three of you are going to go places!

Somebody just needs to be the focal point for others to rally around.  Perhaps that's exactly what you are doing here?

 :)
Thanks for the vote of confidence/support Stan!

Offline Agent86

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 12:36:35 AM »
When we implement dilution I can easily see requiring 50% approval of a delegate to receive the dilution pay.

As delegates already set their pay rate, it would be a negotiation between the potential worker/delegate and the masses. 

This may be a superior alternative to saying all delegates get paid via dilution.
I think this is workable but my preference would definitely be to have workers be separate and directly voted on.

Of course I3 is way too busy at the moment, but maybe down the line if I could get enough investment on board, I could get a quote from I3 for how much you would charge to implement this?  Then I could contract DACs Unlimited to launch it with an agreed distribution and see if the investors agree to the price estimate and go for it.  (or maybe we have luck finding other competent developers & DAC launcher)

Offline CLains

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 01:53:24 AM »
I'm with you on this Agent, the moment I heard about dilution to pay Delegates my brain exploded. If I3 team are busy we should find someone ASAP to develop this dilutation-pay DAC. That way we can honor PTS/AGS with large stake, further integrating the community while introducing new, experimental strains to achieve optimal products faster.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: New DAC developers and investors, help wanted
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 02:59:44 AM »
Some other possible nomenclature...



 

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