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Offline bytemaster

Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« on: July 22, 2014, 08:09:36 PM »

We think that users should be charged more to transact without voting.   This will serve as a way to increase voter participation and can even be done without a hard fork.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline liondani

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 09:30:30 PM »
We think that users should be charged more to transact without voting.   This will serve as a way to increase voter participation and can even be done without a hard fork.

I don't like the idea. I think the most of average users would see that as a negative....
Nobody likes to get "punished"  even if it was for the right reasons. And secondly you would make many user to make random votes just to get ride of the fees.

It would be much better to honor users that made the right votes. What I mean:
The system could keep a percentage of bitshares before it burns it, like 5% for example and give it back as a bonus, divided to the voters that have voted on delegates that managed to get active  and made it to a reliability of over 90% after x  blocks production for example! That would be a great motive, to get paid for voting the most accurate delegates. I assume they would not only think  which one to vote but they would investigate deeply to vote/choose the best of the best!  ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:38:56 PM by liondani »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »
That was the original idea, but it very difficult to implement, would require a hard-fork, and is effectively the same thing.  Your idea is basically to give a discount for voting.  Two ways of looking at the same thing.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline liondani

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 09:47:02 PM »
That was the original idea, but it very difficult to implement, would require a hard-fork, and is effectively the same thing.  Your idea is basically to give a discount for voting.  Two ways of looking at the same thing.

It is not the same think if the result's are not the same...
"you would make many users to make random votes just to get ride of the fees"

how can we stop this kind of effect ?

PS The idea is basically to give a discount for right voting.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:49:44 PM by liondani »
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline bytemaster

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 10:22:45 PM »
That was the original idea, but it very difficult to implement, would require a hard-fork, and is effectively the same thing.  Your idea is basically to give a discount for voting.  Two ways of looking at the same thing.

It is not the same think if the result's are not the same...
"you would make many users to make random votes just to get ride of the fees"

how can we stop this kind of effect ?

PS The idea is basically to give a discount for right voting.

I think if they were to vote randomly then it would be noise in the system.  My assumptions are:

1) most users want to do good and not harm
2) users have incentive to even think about voting which is the biggest task
3) if users do vote "randomly" they will likely vote with the majority (ie: current leaders) and make them stronger
4) "not voting" and "voting with the majority" are effectively the same thing, except that it makes it harder for an exchange to take over the network due to low voter turn out... ie: voting with the current majority is voting for the "Evil you know" rather than letting some future evil gain hold due to lack of votes.
5) Once they vote, they will likely have have experience with voting and will give it at least a slight positive bias. 
6) Once they have experience with voting, they will be more likely to do it in the future.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 10:32:24 PM »
I will support this idea on one condition

MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE

the urls aren't really good enough, you need to have the ability to designate in the GUI who you want to vote for, and right now I don't think you can do that.

The tech seems pretty great but the UI is important, people need to understand the tools in order to use them.

Offline bitcoinba

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Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 10:45:06 PM »
I will support this idea on one condition

MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE

the urls aren't really good enough, you need to have the ability to designate in the GUI who you want to vote for, and right now I don't think you can do that.

The tech seems pretty great but the UI is important, people need to understand the tools in order to use them.


I agree. If voting is so important why is  actually called "approving" in the UI, and why is that actual page two levels down behind: Directory/Delegates? There should be a dedicated section on the main left hand navigation that follows the natural language that describes a voting process; ie: Elections, Voting, Politics. It needs it's own page with clear instructions that are not technical and common sense.


Offline bytemaster

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 10:47:34 PM »
I will support this idea on one condition

MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE

the urls aren't really good enough, you need to have the ability to designate in the GUI who you want to vote for, and right now I don't think you can do that.

The tech seems pretty great but the UI is important, people need to understand the tools in order to use them.

We are working on this interface....
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline biophil

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Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 11:01:21 PM »
In game theory this is called the Beauty Contest problem. If you provide financial incentive to vote, you'll get random votes, which is probably worse than people not voting at all. In essence, the sorting of delegates in the GUI will decide who wins elections because people will vote for whoever is at the top of the list.

Offline jbutta2k13

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Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2014, 11:19:25 PM »
I would like to propose that delegates be completely fielded in a hypervisor where node connections, vote density and delegate platform can be seen simple through a mouseover.
This could be implemented in the GUI and make it easy to see all delegates and pertinent information. Honestly we wanted work on it but we feel it should best be taken up by i3. Several platforms exist sick at networkx gephi and d3. This would be very good to integrate.

Ggozzo

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Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2014, 11:23:32 PM »
In game theory this is called the Beauty Contest problem. If you provide financial incentive to vote, you'll get random votes, which is probably worse than people not voting at all. In essence, the sorting of delegates in the GUI will decide who wins elections because people will vote for whoever is at the top of the list.

I alluded to this earlier. Most people are only going to vote for and approve those who are already "in".

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2014, 11:35:51 PM »
In game theory this is called the Beauty Contest problem. If you provide financial incentive to vote, you'll get random votes, which is probably worse than people not voting at all. In essence, the sorting of delegates in the GUI will decide who wins elections because people will vote for whoever is at the top of the list.

I alluded to this earlier. Most people are only going to vote for and approve those who are already "in".

you can fix this by coming up with a scoring ( think this was in the original proposal)
#blocks found, %uptime (which is hokey while there are bugs), #votes, payrate.

you can even make the weighting variables so users themselves can come up with their own metric

now sorting will be done based on data rather than random.

This doesn't prevent the current problem, people manipulating the system to get high on the list. And it also may prevent "charity" or developer accounts with high payrates (since people won't go through the effort to see who is who...)
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline luckybit

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »
I will support this idea on one condition

MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE

the urls aren't really good enough, you need to have the ability to designate in the GUI who you want to vote for, and right now I don't think you can do that.

The tech seems pretty great but the UI is important, people need to understand the tools in order to use them.

We are working on this interface....

Not just for voting but people will need something like tool tips or similar for when market asset trading begins. There is some confusion about the terminology used and we need clarity about what everything means. Either tool tips or a help section to explain.
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Offline hadrian

Re: Increasing Fees for Non Voting Transactions
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 04:34:15 PM »
I would like to see in the client the ability to sort and filter the list of potential delegates according to various criteria. I guess this has been discussed somewhere in the forum already? I've been really short on time recently, so am not up to date with my knowledge.
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