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Offline bytemaster

RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« on: July 23, 2014, 07:08:24 PM »

One of our major challenges is making voting easy for the average person who doesn't have time to follow 101 different delegates.  For this reason we are going to make voting even easier:  you can delegate your selection of delegates to a single delegate.   How it works is this:

1) Every delegate may optionally specify a slate ID as part of their public data.  This slate ID identifies up to 101 delegates supported by that delegate.
2) Every user can select one or more delegates to approve of
3) The wallet will automatically combine the public slates of the delegates that user approves of to produce their votes.

Benefits:
1) More people voting with the same slate ID increases privacy
2) The default wallet can hard-code the developers own account as the default recommendation
3) Delegates are now competing not just on pay-rate, but also on how well balanced their selected slates are.
4) Users still have to transact to update their votes so they don't give up control of their votes, they merely have auto-recomendation.
5) More similar slates reduce block chain bloat.
6) Lobbying to become a delegate can now be focused toward existing delegates for endorsement. 
7) We can enable "down votes" that simply remove delegates from the "recommended set"

This is no more centralized than the current system and in-fact, encourages decentralization because delegates compete on making solid recommendations that include other delegates. 

With this in place there is no need to charge extra for not voting.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 08:32:46 PM by bytemaster »
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xeroc

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Re: DDPOS - Delegated Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 08:29:52 PM »
Awesome idea ... reminds me of nxt leasing .. but even better
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 08:38:35 PM »
Fantastic! Now I'll be able to define my rules and automatically make recommendations in my tool, then people can just pick me if they think my tool is doing the right thing.

Offline cass

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 08:41:55 PM »
 +5% great
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Offline Shentist

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 08:46:30 PM »
the weak point in ripple you see, is the "cartel" of old friends, for new people are impossible to get in. will this slate ID not decrease the chance for newcomers to get one of the 101 delegate seats?

Offline bytemaster

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 08:49:09 PM »
the weak point in ripple you see, is the "cartel" of old friends, for new people are impossible to get in. will this slate ID not decrease the chance for newcomers to get one of the 101 delegate seats?

Users still have to cast the ballots and can "filter" the recommendations.   So this is not the same as Ripple where the users have no say.  We are just helping the users express their say by automating a process that would occur naturally outside the system.   Ie:  if you cannot stop it from happening then you should at least control how it happens.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 09:16:33 PM »
Do I have to approve the legate to use his selection or I can click and see his recommendations
?
If I can check without necessary approving him beforehand great!

Now, on the topic if great slate pickers make great delegates – sound like different jobs to me so,
3) Delegates are now competing not just on pay-rate, but also on how well balanced their selected slates are.

I might use one delegates recommendation and not even consider him himself for inclusion.

Anyone can produce a slate of delegates.
You browse before you buy.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline wackou

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 09:34:40 PM »
Excellent idea!! This is a great step towards "fixing" voter apathy, as I can imagine not so far away in the future that some delegates will be known for advancing network security, some for marketing, some for charity, and some other for diversity. People would definitely be more aware and willing to check one of those boxes (where each box would be a known delegate for his recommendations):

Code: [Select]
[ ] 100% network security
[ ] 100% marketing
[ ] 100% charity
[ ] 50% network, 50% marketing
[ ] 33% network, 33% marketing, 33% charity
etc.

than choosing a full slate of delegates.

bytemaster, the speed at which you find solutions to problems you encounter on the go is really impressive, first tapos, then dpos, now rdpos, and not even a year has gone by... hats off to you!
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Offline GaltReport

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 09:40:44 PM »
 +5% +5% +5%

Offline liondani

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 10:11:47 PM »
...it sounds good !
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Offline BTSdac

Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 12:05:09 AM »
Hello bytemaster
1.common user vote a round ,this round include 101 delegates , it mean this user vote the 101 delegates in this round
2. the delegate that miss block in this round cannot get the voting , or get the reduced voting
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 12:09:02 AM by BTSdac »
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Offline 8bit

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 12:22:10 AM »
Can I delegate my vote to non-delegates? Building a quality slate seems like a good way to convince the community that you're dedicated to bitshares.

Can I have votes that I personally make take priority over those I delegate my votes to? So for example, I vote for 5 people, and then subscribe to a slate of 101 people. Will the system vote for my 5, and then bump out 5 of the 101 randos I just signed up for?

Can I 'block' delegates? So, for example, I subscribe to a slate containing the delegate doucheBagKyle, but I have doucheBagKyle blocked, so I don't vote for him even though I just subscribed to a slate containing him.

If yes to the above, can people make slates that block people, rather than vote for them?
Code: [Select]
wallet_approve_delegate eightbitA VOTE FOR EIGHTBIT IS A VOTE FOR CRUDE DICK ART

Online CLains

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 12:28:34 AM »
Very interesting proposal! I'll need to think some more about this. Btw,

Quote from: Sergio Lerner
The only way to give a theoretical solution to the mining centralization problem is by forcing miners to use real identities, and people vote/trust on those. This is because with anonymous mining all miners could be controlled by a single party. Having real identities implies legal liabilities and users trust, which in turn implies centralization (institutions, pool, companies) to reduce personal risks and provide higher trust. So it's a paradox. Decentralization looks more like Ripple paradigm than Bitcoin paradigm.

Do we still have this guy around here? I'd love to see him comment on some of these things.

Offline gamey

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 12:38:15 AM »
It is like political parties.  I can't see anyone seriously argue this doesn't increase centralization.

The guy who mentioned Ripple is off base, but that is the criticism we are going to see.  This definitely has upsides, but meh.

Giving it a different name (RDPOS) isn't a good idea.  You guys had problems with the weird BitShares X branding.  Now we'll have RDPOS and DPOS.  Explaining how RDPOS improves anything will not be an easy sale.  In fact, "recommended" psychologically frames the whole process negatively in terms of what crypto people are wanting.

The basic problem is that the motivations of stake holders are not the same for Delegates.  Delegates are in it to profit off transaction fees by being elected.  Users are in it to profit of appreciation or the burn rate.  Delegates aren't necessarily looking after users.

Delegates will provide a self-serving slate that end-users will not easily be able to discern.  In addition, we may end up with a lot of nastiness. "Such and such was removed off slate GOOD GUYS for petty reason #4923".  It just won't look good.  You are centralizing things on different levels, allowing more gamification of the system.
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Offline arkanaprotego

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Re: RDPOS - Recommended Delegated Proof of Stake
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 12:41:03 AM »
What happened to the idea of having automatic votes based on past performance as default?

 

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