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Offline santaclause102

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Approval voting -> issues with voting participation
« on: July 26, 2014, 04:38:39 PM »

Title was: Approval voting = delegation voting. Turned out to be not the case...
I changed the title because https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6249.msg83622#msg83622
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With the possibility for delegate-operators to have as many delegates as they want don't we have delegation voting (= your voting power is distributed among all the delegates you vote for) and not real approval voting effectively?

For example (with approval voting): I want to have the full effect of my voting stake, so I have to vote for 101 delegates. If I only know and trust 5 delegates then I would have to vote for 25 delegates of each of the 5 delegate operators.
This would be the same as distributing your vote among 5 delegates if we had delegation voting.

On the other side approval voting gives the shareholder, that is not educated that his vote only has the full effect when he votes for 101 delegates, the impression that he is supposed to vote only for a few delegates. He doesn't see a reasons to vote for 20 delegates (as he doesn't know the system/ approval voting) and might think voting for 25 delegates might be a bit too much power for one delegate. The result is low effective participation in voting even if all shareholders voted but just for a hand full of delegates.

So effectively (if you know how the voting system works) approval voting and delegation voting is the same.

If people don't understand the voting system fully then we have the following contra points for the two systems:
Approval voting: Low effective participation
Delegation voting as opposed to wrong assumptions about approval voting: Having to play whack-a-mole with bad stake; bad stake can cause trouble. 

In reality both voting systems are the same if delegate operators can set up as many delegates as they want.

An attacker probably understands the voting system better than the average shareholder, so we give him an advantage with approval voting. 

This was a quick though I had after the mumble session. There might be a flaw in there but up to now I couldn't think of one.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 05:07:51 PM by delulo »

Offline bytemaster

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 05:15:14 PM »
That was my original thinking too, but it is really quite different.   With RDPOS it makes it much better with Approval voting.
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 05:22:09 PM »
I would also think it is much different but not if there are many delegates for each delegate operator which would be a necessity if we want shareholders to max out their effective votes (vote for 101 delegates) under the condition that the vast majority of shareholders only knows a few delegate operators to be trustworthy (limited time to do due diligence).
Can you point me to a post that shows that approval voting is really different from delegation voting under the above circumstances?

And RDPOS shouldn't contradict approval voting. You could do RDPOS + approval voting (I guess that was your suggestion) as well as RDOPS + delegation voting.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 05:25:03 PM by delulo »

Offline GaltReport

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 05:23:27 PM »
With the possibility for delegate-operators to have as many delegates as they want don't we have delegation voting (= your voting power is distributed among all the delegates you vote for) and not real approval voting effectively?

For example (with approval voting): I want to have the full effect of my voting stake, so I have to vote for 101 delegates. If I only know and trust 5 delegates then I would have to vote for 25 delegates of each of the 5 delegate operators.
This would be the same as distributing your vote among 5 delegates if we had delegation voting.

On the other side approval voting gives the shareholder, that is not educated that his vote only has the full effect when he votes for 101 delegates, the impression that he is supposed to vote only for a few delegates. He doesn't see a reasons to vote for 20 delegates (as he doesn't know the system/ approval voting) and might think voting for 25 delegates might be a bit too much power for one delegate. The result is low effective participation in voting even if all shareholders voted but just for a hand full of delegates.

So effectively (if you know how the voting system works) approval voting and delegation voting is the same.

If people don't understand the voting system fully then we have the following contra points for the two systems:
Approval voting: Low effective participation
Delegation voting as opposed to wrong assumptions about approval voting: Having to play whack-a-mole with bad stake; bad stake can cause trouble. 

In reality both voting systems are the same if delegate operators can set up as many delegates as they want.

An attacker probably understands the voting system better than the average shareholder, so we give him an advantage with approval voting. 

This was a quick though I had after the mumble session. There might be a flaw in there but up to now I couldn't think of one.

Is this true?  In order for your votes to count, you have to vote for 101 delegates?

bitbro

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Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 05:27:31 PM »
What if delegates have to register to a "type" or "political party"... And then anyone who doesn't want to vote for 101 delegates can choose to vote for a "type" or "politcial party," however this would not be a vote for a set slate, instead a vote for a political party is a vote for any delegates randomly selected from that political party

Edit: the key difference in this proposal is the randomly selected aspect of the slate

Edit: example: if I want 50 of my votes going to the lowest bidding delegates then I choose the Low Pay Party for 50 votes.  50 random Low Pay Delegates then get those votes. 

I also want 51 Above Low Pay Marketing Delegates to get votes.  I vote for that party and 51 randomly selected Above Low Pay Marketing Delegates get a vote

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« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 05:31:32 PM by bitbro »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 05:28:19 PM »
Is this true?  In order for your votes to count, you have to vote for 101 delegates?
..not for your votes to count but for your votes to have the full effect. Currently Bitshares X has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting + the possibility for delegate operators to have as many delegates as they want. My proposition is that this results in disguised delegation voting again.

GaltReport post is a good example that it is not intuitive that one has to vote 101 delegates to have the maximum effect of his votes.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 05:30:58 PM by delulo »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 05:30:07 PM »
What if delegates have to register to a "type" or "political party"... And then anyone who doesn't want to vote for 101 delegates can choose to vote for a "type" or "politcial party," however this would not be a vote for a set slate, instead a vote for a political party is a vote for any delegates randomly selected from that political party

Edit: the key difference in this proposal is the randomly selected aspect of the slate

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Hmmm that would be a variation to RDPOS. I think it would be best discussed in the RDPOS thread :) 

Offline GaltReport

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 05:31:34 PM »
Is this true?  In order for your votes to count, you have to vote for 101 delegates?
Not for your votes to count but for your votes to have the full effect. The current system has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting + the possibility for delegate operators to have as many delegates as they want. My proposition is that this results in disguised delegation voting again.

GaltReport post is a good example that it is not intuitive that one has to vote 101 delegates to have the maximum effect of his votes.

True, I had no idea.  What is the effect of voting for 5 vs 101?

Offline toast

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 05:32:22 PM »
No, you do *not* need to have 101 votes for your votes to have "full effect". This is a misconception I had about approval voting as well where it felt like the vote was being "split".

If I only like 30, it is better for me to vote for 30, not 30 + 71 random low-vote people.


Think of delegate voting as 10,000 independent elections.
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 05:40:54 PM »
Quote
If I only like 30, it is better for me to vote for 30, not 30 + 71 random low-vote people.
It would be even better if you voted for 3 delegates of all the 30 delegate operators you like. Then your vote has more weight. My assumption was that all delegate operators have many delegates which would be "a necessity if we want shareholders to max out their effective votes (vote for 101 delegates) under the condition that the vast majority of shareholders only knows a few delegate operators to be trustworthy (limited time to do due diligence). "

Someone else's stake that is the same as mine that only votes for 30 and not for 3*30 would have 1/3 voting power compared to me. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 05:43:37 PM by delulo »

Offline toast

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
Quote
If I only like 30, it is better for me to vote for 30, not 30 + 71 random low-vote people.
It would be even better if you voted for 3 delegates of all the 30 delegate operators you like.

No, it doesn't have more weight. Try out some scenarios, make some example rankings. You should always vote for people you like and not vote for people you don't like.
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 05:45:54 PM »
Quote
If I only like 30, it is better for me to vote for 30, not 30 + 71 random low-vote people.
It would be even better if you voted for 3 delegates of all the 30 delegate operators you like.

No, it doesn't have more weight. Try out some scenarios, make some example rankings. You should always vote for people you like and not vote for people you don't like.
Like I said I don't imply any scenario where I vote for people I dont like. There are x people I like -> 100/x = y. Then I vote y times for those I like because they have at least y delegates. That they have y delegates is my assumption and it is necessary due to limited due diligence capacities of shareholders.

Offline toast

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »
You can't vote more than once for the same person! It is 0 or 1 votes for each delegate independent of your total vote

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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 05:50:03 PM »
Is this true?  In order for your votes to count, you have to vote for 101 delegates?
Not for your votes to count but for your votes to have the full effect. The current system has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting + the possibility for delegate operators to have as many delegates as they want. My proposition is that this results in disguised delegation voting again.

GaltReport post is a good example that it is not intuitive that one has to vote 101 delegates to have the maximum effect of his votes.

True, I had no idea.  What is the effect of voting for 5 vs 101?
I you only vote for 5 delegates (as opposed to for 5 delegate operators with many delegates each) you have about 1/20 of the influence as if you voted for 101 delegates. One way to vote for 101 delegates is to for for 20 delegates of each of your 5 delegate operators you like.
There might still be someone to proof me wrong on this ;)

Offline toast

Re: Approval voting = delegation voting
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 05:51:46 PM »
Your vote slate is a union of the delegate operators' vote slates. It doesn't change anything in the blockchain, it is strictly wallet-side and works as before.

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