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Offline alphaBar

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No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 28, 2014, 04:44:34 PM »

Hi, can someone please explain the official position on this? There was intense discussion about what to do with the mining reward and then complete silence. Protoshares was created with the purpose of funding development of DPOS. What gives?

Offline alphaBar

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 05:56:53 AM »
We had hundreds of comments and over a dozen forum posts, many by Stan himself discussing this:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4636.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4658.msg59210#msg59210

Ultimately, most in the community were in agreement with this proposal:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4684.0

Why was this not adopted? If there was a change of plans, why was the community not consulted?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 06:00:07 AM by alphaBar »

Offline toast

Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 07:20:08 AM »
There are a million other things to do, we need a POW difficulty update for PTS in either case, and we don't want to put all our eggs into one basket while DPOS so young. So we put it off. What makes you so concerned about it?
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 03:48:40 PM »
There are a million other things to do

So you're saying you don't have the resources to do this? This is the exact opposite sentiment to what I was reading in the multiple discussion threads started by I3 above.

we need a POW difficulty update for PTS in either case

The POW difficulty update is not the only issue. What about the low hash rate and the fact that many of the miners are only mining for altruistic reasons. The current situation is insecure and inefficient, and the matter was discussed in painstaking detail with the community and resolved. The idea that I3 would make a backdoor decision after all this is just astonishing to me.

we don't want to put all our eggs into one basket while DPOS so young.

I'm sorry but this statement is utterly illogical. BTSX currently has 3 times the market cap of Bitshares PTS. Are you claiming that it is I3's strategy to "diversify" across multiple consensus algorithms just in case DPOS fails? Why not tell our DAC developers to do the same - one can create X11, Scrypt, SHA256, Nxt, etc. The fact is that everyone in this ecosystem has knowingly put their eggs into "this one basket" (DPOS). The entire point of buying PTS or AGS is to be solely in this one basket of DPOS.

What makes you so concerned about it?

*backroom decision making OPPOSITE to the community consensus
*scatterbrained and illogical answers when consulted
*The fact that some PTS whales dumped and crashed the price almost immediately after this backroom decision was made.

Is that enough for you?


Offline donkeypong

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »
I try to be patient around here, but I would like PTS to be addressed also.

Offline liondani

Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 04:28:20 PM »


There are a million other things to do, we need a POW difficulty update for PTS in either case, and we don't want to put all our eggs into one basket while DPOS so young. So we put it off. What makes you so concerned about it?

if we would get to consensus about what we should do with the coins that are not mined yet, it would be more than sure that DPOS would be  implemented on PTS... at least that was what I understood...  so I am surprised as well  with your answer... I am missing something for sure... 
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Offline xeroc

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 04:28:54 PM »
I remember asking but cannot remember the answer..

Why not have PTS a as market/asset on the blockchain ... basically its not too important what tech is behind it as long as its a public ledger you can take snapshots from
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 04:52:17 PM »
if we would get to consensus about what we should do with the coins that are not mined yet, it would be more than sure that DPOS would be  implemented on PTS... at least that was what I understood...  so I am surprised as well  with your answer... I am missing something for sure...

We discussed this at length (see the threads I linked to). There is nothing to "do" with the unmined PTS - it doesn't exist. Here is the analogy to what you're asking about:

* My company spends $100 per day on security.
* The company funds development of a cheaper security technique, which reduces the cost of security to $50.
* Shareholders object that we don't know what to "do" with the saved $50, and therefore we should not implement the new technique.

There was no contractual obligation to give away ANY future savings, whether by DPOS or any other future improvement. Diluting the PTS money supply and giving it away would be theft, period.

Edit: this is really not relevant to my post, which was more about the lack of transparency and the backdoor decision making that went on, eventually crashing the price of PTS.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:54:16 PM by alphaBar »

Offline gamey

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 05:32:45 PM »
Lol @ the continued use of  "backdoor decision making" as if someone is doing anything underhanded. 

The change still requires resources to do and is not even plausible to do at this exact moment with the exchange situation.

There are some fine distinctions at play too.  With a mined currency you never create any of the currency yourself.  You do not issue it, etc.  With DPOS it is different, yanno? 

You then have 2 networks floating around after the fork.

I agree PTS sucks.  Altruistic network that is relatively insecure.  I'd rather just see mining turned off. Part of the problem is that Stan went and started making their thoughts public, then they went back, changed them and currently not following through.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:35:54 PM by gamey »
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 06:01:22 PM »
Lol @ the continued use of  "backdoor decision making" as if someone is doing anything underhanded. 
[...]
Part of the problem is that Stan went and started making their thoughts public, then they went back, changed them and currently not following through.

That is the exact definition of backdoor decision making, not sure what you are laughing about. There was a long and detailed public discussion leading to consensus. Then "some people" decided to reverse course, in private, and with no input or explanation to the community.

Offline gamey

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 06:22:16 PM »
Lol @ the continued use of  "backdoor decision making" as if someone is doing anything underhanded. 
[...]
Part of the problem is that Stan went and started making their thoughts public, then they went back, changed them and currently not following through.

That is the exact definition of backdoor decision making, not sure what you are laughing about. There was a long and detailed public discussion leading to consensus. Then "some people" decided to reverse course, in private, and with no input or explanation to the community.

They take input from community, but they act themselves.  The phrase implies they are doing something underhanded amongst themselves to benefit themselves.  That just doesn't seem to be the case at all.  You seem like you're trying to spread more FUD than anything. 

I shouldn't have laughed, but I just feel the urge to be a bit rude back when I see people implying that something malicious is happening here.  Like I3 is doing this to benefit themselves.  That is what you were implying.  I think the approach they're taking is for everyone's benefit.

Here is a list of issues switching over
Resources to test from POW/momentum -> DPOS = large.
DPOS's wallet isn't even finished yet.
Several major exchanges would have to stop supporting PTS if the change happened this instant.
PTS would be in chaos with 2 forks going forward.  Unlike most forks where the old fork is obviously dead, that won't be the case here.
All the support resources that would be taken away by this.
As I alluded to previously, there is a distinction.  With PTS/POW it was all mined into existence.  All they did was release software.  Now you are asking them to allocate PTS.  Think of this in terms of how laws might be applied in some country somewhere.  Having it mined into existence is a lot better position to be in.

It is a minefield and I3 doesn't have infinite resources.

I really really wish PTS wasn't so screwed up either.  I just don't know why you would want them to change it over right now.  It should probably have a hard fork fixing the difficulty issue sooner than later if nothing else.
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 07:41:08 PM »
I support the Invictus decision-making process. The only way to make coherent decisions is to listen to the stakeholders, take everything into account, and then act decisively. They can't submit all their decisions to the whims of polls and voting and squeaky wheels; if they did, it would be chaos and nothing important would get done.

That said, I agree with the opinion that PTS badly needs an upgrade and I join you in calling for one as soon as possible. DPOS sounds like a good improvement. I say throw it on there. PLEEEASE, folks, fix PTS, and not just with a band-aid patch.

So says this squeaky wheel (and stakeholder).

Offline onceuponatime

Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 07:48:23 PM »
I support the Invictus decision-making process. The only way to make coherent decisions is to listen to the stakeholders, take everything into account, and then act decisively. They can't submit all their decisions to the whims of polls and voting and squeaky wheels; if they did, it would be chaos and nothing important would get done.

That said, I agree with the opinion that PTS badly needs an upgrade and I join you in calling for one as soon as possible. DPOS sounds like a good improvement. I say throw it on there. PLEEEASE, folks, fix PTS, and not just with a band-aid patch.

So says this squeaky wheel (and stakeholder).

Agree +5%

Offline Brekyrself

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 08:09:25 PM »
Another issue is pool and miner support.  www.beeeeer.org is taking it's pts pool offline August 7th.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 08:35:46 PM »
They take input from community, but they act themselves.  The phrase implies they are doing something underhanded amongst themselves to benefit themselves.

Wrong. The phrase implies that there is a lack of transparency coupled with an apparent reversal of their (I3's) position. Stan was seemingly on board with "Proposal 3" which I link to above (it was HIS OWN proposal), and so was almost everyone who commented. He said: "This is, in my opinion, not the best we can do as a community,  but this seems to be the closest thing to a consensus we have at this point.  Not unanimous consensus by any means, but perhaps the only way to move forward."

Think about this: the marketing director proposes something which the community discusses at length and agrees to. Then, after a private meeting he goes 180 degrees in the opposite direction with no further feedback or explanation. That is called "backdoor decision making".

Here is a list of issues switching over
Resources to test from POW/momentum -> DPOS = large.
DPOS's wallet isn't even finished yet.
Several major exchanges would have to stop supporting PTS if the change happened this instant.
PTS would be in chaos with 2 forks going forward.  Unlike most forks where the old fork is obviously dead, that won't be the case here.
All the support resources that would be taken away by this.
As I alluded to previously, there is a distinction.  With PTS/POW it was all mined into existence.  All they did was release software.  Now you are asking them to allocate PTS.  Think of this in terms of how laws might be applied in some country somewhere.  Having it mined into existence is a lot better position to be in.

It is a minefield and I3 doesn't have infinite resources.

I really really wish PTS wasn't so screwed up either.  I just don't know why you would want them to change it over right now.  It should probably have a hard fork fixing the difficulty issue sooner than later if nothing else.

Obviously the developers and Stan disagree with you on this new "resource limitation" argument since they were the ones who proposed the change in the first place! But then again, maybe you know better than even the developers about what can and cannot be done. /s

The fact is that it takes very little additional resource FROM I3 to do the fork. The exchanges will need to implement a wallet on their end, but they will have to do that for BTSX anyway. There is minimal overhead for PTS support, or any other DAC for that matter (once they support the first DPOS coin).

 

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