Greedy delegates

[maqifrnswa]

It is up to the market users can set the fee in their client and delegates can set the fee in their client anyone who sets a fee that's too low and just have a pending transaction forever users can then voting delegates that approve at reasonable fee.


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Great! So delegates get two knobs:
1) Fees accepted
2) % of fees that are destroyed

This is another economics/game theory problem (you can write a book on this delegate game):
1) If there is no limitation to block size, delegates should accept any fee >0. A delegate gains nothing by turning down a fee. A delegate that turns down a fee is essentially just paying the next person in line a tip. So the first knob won't do anything. However, if there is a universal limit on blocksize, every delegate will accept the largest fee per byte transaction first.
2) The second knob is more powerful, but is currently broken. In order for the % fees destroyed to reach an efficient market equilibrium, they must be allowed to go both up and down. Otherwise, the market will not be efficient and delegates will be incentived to damage the network in the event of a flash drop in price. Even though you would hope delegates should not do that based on moral grounds, the existence of such an incentive is a sign of a broken system.

I don't care about anything now since we're talking about pennies here, but I really want this system to be able to be robust in the future. My analysis keeps pointing to serious problems playing out later on which we can fix now and head off. I don't care if people are greedy at the moment, but we should really think about this economic system and if this is what we want going forward.

[Riverhead]

Ideally ,each delegate can  produce   750hrX3600S/10s/101= 2673btsx/mo. Based one current btsx price (less than 0.01usd),each delegate need  to pay around 30 to 80 dollars per month to keep their position.

Considering what I sometimes spend on beer in a month, especially if that is in beer gardens and other trendy hangouts, I feel this is money well spent.  If nothing else than to say I was part of a revolution  8) .  Sure I've got some skin in the game and hope to pad my retirement a bit but mostly I'd like to be able to say, "I helped make that happen" 20 years from now.

[gamey]

As transaction/block size increases the delegates will probably have to ramp up their hardware/vps implementations.  I can't imagine that ever costing close to $1k/month....but who knows what the future holds.  I guess with someone like me, at 5% pay, it would be much less and probably closer to the actual cost of hosting a delegate.

There was hope that the fees would be turned into value outside of just straightforward profit realization.  This is part of the problem with bitcoin.  10% inflation goes strictly to security but none of that is aimed at development or marketing.  With delegate system this could be quite different. 

This is why I take exception to calling others greedy.  A lot of people have given a lot of time to the project.  For someone to come around who appears to have not previously participated and call others "greedy" over setting their pay rate to get $1 a day is laughable.  Actually I think it is quite counter-productive towards the Bitshares X network.

[sfinder]

I do a small math last night. the cost for renting a 2 cores and 4GB ram with 60GB SSD cloud server is around 0.06/hr to 0.14 usd/hr.   the monthly cost is from 45USD+tax% to 105USD+tax% depend on which provider you are using and which part of world you are living, the sales tax for me is around 15% . Ideally ,each delegate can  produce   750hrX3600S/10s/101= 2673btsx/mo. Based one current btsx price (less than 0.01usd),each delegate need  to pay around 30 to 80 dollars per month to keep their position. I enjoy to be a delegate not only because believing BM's view but also enjoying to play with technologies and helping kids in high school to learn bitshares.

It is up to the market users can set the fee in their client and delegates can set the fee in their client anyone who sets a fee that's too low and just have a pending transaction forever users can then voting delegates that approve at reasonable fee.


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[bytemaster]

It is up to the market users can set the fee in their client and delegates can set the fee in their client anyone who sets a fee that's too low and just have a pending transaction forever users can then voting delegates that approve at reasonable fee.


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[maqifrnswa]

I think all delegates are vastly underpaid at this point in time. 

I hope to increase fees to increase delegate compensation. 


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increasing fees is a centralized approach, is there a way to set up a market or decentralized approach? For example, delegates should have a mechanism to control payrates both up and down in a way that is transparent in order to respond to market forces.

[Riverhead]

As transaction/block size increases the delegates will probably have to ramp up their hardware/vps implementations.  I can't imagine that ever costing close to $1k/month....but who knows what the future holds.  I guess with someone like me, at 5% pay, it would be much less and probably closer to the actual cost of hosting a delegate.

There will be people like me who is able to donate very beefy dedicated hardware and fast internet for free, my delegate pay will be 100% donated. I run several full nodes for Bitcoin too.

Ballers gonna Ball  8)
+5%

[kokojie]

As transaction/block size increases the delegates will probably have to ramp up their hardware/vps implementations.  I can't imagine that ever costing close to $1k/month....but who knows what the future holds.  I guess with someone like me, at 5% pay, it would be much less and probably closer to the actual cost of hosting a delegate.

There will be people like me who is able to donate very beefy dedicated hardware and fast internet for free, my delegate pay will be 100% donated. I run several full nodes for Bitcoin too.

[Riverhead]

As transaction/block size increases the delegates will probably have to ramp up their hardware/vps implementations.  I can't imagine that ever costing close to $1k/month....but who knows what the future holds.  I guess with someone like me, at 5% pay, it would be much less and probably closer to the actual cost of hosting a delegate.

[CLains]

5% inflation would make 1 million dollars a year at 20 million market cap,

1 million divided by 101 delegates ~= 10 000 dollars

haters gonna hate

[bytemaster]

I think all delegates are vastly underpaid at this point in time. 

I hope to increase fees to increase delegate compensation. 


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[gamey]

Hello

You made 3 completely different threads which basically all had the same content.  That you are operating below cost/others are greedy.

In my opinion, the point of this tread is to highlight that there are greedy delegates. There are also delegates providing valuable services. The community is voting, in my opinion, correctly as the average pay rate has now reduced from ~90 to ~80%.

The Node6 thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6410 is to allow users to post their  ≤ 6% node details.

I have removed my original post.

Why don't you tell us how much in USD you are saving someone with a 1 million BTSX stake ?

I alone cannot make savings for a 1 million BTSX stake holder but these two threads should promote a much leaner system by increasing the burn rate and returning profits to all stake holders.

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Bitshares_X#Delegate_Burn_Rate_to_realize_profits

Reducing the supply of BTSX is economically equivalent to dividing the transaction fees among all holders of BTSX proportional to their ownership.

It is not correct to call people greedy when they're really not even breaking even on their time/VPS cost.  When the money actually becomes significant to any meaningful degree, then market forces will kick in.  If delegates are providing no value then they will be removed.  Pushing for such a really low rate at this point is doing nothing but inviting centralization. 

Value from someone who actually is a contributing member will vastly outweigh what you are burning at this point.  It is not even close.

Thank you for the wiki link.  I guess maybe should go read that ....

[iHashFury]

Hello

You made 3 completely different threads which basically all had the same content.  That you are operating below cost/others are greedy.

In my opinion, the point of this tread is to highlight that there are greedy delegates. There are also delegates providing valuable services. The community is voting, in my opinion, correctly as the average pay rate has now reduced from ~90 to ~80%.

The Node6 thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6410 is to allow users to post their  ≤ 6% node details.

I have removed my original post.

Why don't you tell us how much in USD you are saving someone with a 1 million BTSX stake ?

I alone cannot make savings for a 1 million BTSX stake holder but these two threads should promote a much leaner system by increasing the burn rate and returning profits to all stake holders.

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Bitshares_X#Delegate_Burn_Rate_to_realize_profits

Reducing the supply of BTSX is economically equivalent to dividing the transaction fees among all holders of BTSX proportional to their ownership.

[gamey]

3 post = spam?

You made 3 completely different threads which basically all had the same content.  That you are operating below cost/others are greedy.

Why don't you tell us how much in USD you are saving someone with a 1 million BTSX stake ?

It is hard enough to keep up with everything.  What makes you think that you deserve 3 threads to choke the forum with repetitive ads ?  Do you think this is a good approach for everyone to take in our community ?

If my comments/posts/opinions are not relevant and of no use to the community  - moderator feel free to delete

It would be nice if you would attempt to answer my questions instead of just calling other delegates greedy.

I don't think most moderators really want to be in a position to make such a judgement call, so we rely on community a bit to police ourselves.

[iHashFury]

3 post = spam?

You made 3 completely different threads which basically all had the same content.  That you are operating below cost/others are greedy.

Why don't you tell us how much in USD you are saving someone with a 1 million BTSX stake ?

It is hard enough to keep up with everything.  What makes you think that you deserve 3 threads to choke the forum with repetitive ads ?  Do you think this is a good approach for everyone to take in our community ?

If my comments/posts/opinions are not relevant and of no use to the community  - moderator feel free to delete