Poll

How should PTS be upgraded?

PTS should be migrated to a standalone DPOS blockchain.
27 (50%)
PTS should be migrated to a user-issued asset in BTSX.
10 (18.5%)
PTS should stay on the current PoW chain.
17 (31.5%)

Total Members Voted: 49

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Offline alphaBar

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PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 03:44:13 AM »

Friends, the PTS price has been dropping rapidly for the last few weeks. Dan has indicated that the maintenance and decisions related to PTS are no longer the responsibility of Invictus. The user "testz" has been tasked with maintaining PTS in accordance with the community's consensus. I created this poll with 3 options, but as we all know there are really only two paths forward. The current PTS chain is insecure and inefficient due to a low hashrate, high inflation, and other problems (difficulty adjustment, etc).

We need to decide how and when to proceed with an upgrade. Please vote and comment to indicate your preference as well as your preferred timing of the upgrade. I personally believe that PTS should be upgraded IMMEDIATELY as a standalone DPOS chain and should NOT be a user-issued asset in BTSX and here is why:

BTSX is essentially the first DAC. There are very ambitious features of the BTSX DAC that could fail spectacularly, independent of DPOS (pegged assets, for example). PTS should not be subject to the volatility and risk introduced by these features or future features that may be implemented by BTSX. PTS should be independent, both in price, volatility, and features from the DACs that are born from it. It should be the Switzerland of DACs, agnostic and separate from even the market perceptions of a DAC and its features. This way it ends up representing a more distributed and non-biased segment of investors who are not for or against any particular feature of any particular DAC, but who believe in the underlying protocol as a foundation (DPOS).

With respect to the timing of the upgrade, I believe it should be done urgently and immediately to prevent a further decline in the price and investor confidence in PTS. The upgrade should be seamless and relatively frictionless now that the large exchanges have implemented BTSX (implementation of any DPOS wallet is essentially the same). An advanced announcement of the exact block of the snapshot for the upgrade should be sufficient. If it is agreed, we will need people to reach out to cryptsy, bter and other exchanges to coordinate the timing.

With Invictus shifting their focus away from PTS, it is up to the community to make this happen and to stop the bleeding in PTS. Whatever your opinion, please make it known or nothing will change.

Offline toast

Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 03:50:25 AM »
Quote
The upgrade should be seamless and relatively frictionless now

I really strongly disagree, I think it will be hard as hell to do it seamlessly. You are effectively making a new chain and killing the old one at the same time... All the services that integrate with PTS will have to be rewritten. You can't just "swap out" the POW for DPOS in the current version of PTS.

I do think it is necessary, but it needs to be done carefully.

Meanwhile:

Quote
The current PTS chain is insecure and inefficient due to a low hashrate, high inflation, and other problems (difficulty adjustment, etc).

This is what the difficulty patch that testz is working on addresses. The high inflation will remain but the wonky hashrate will be fixed.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 04:00:51 AM »
@toast, I don't disagree with you, but I think there is a real sense of urgency here. Just as an example, can you link me to the PTS website? Probably not since the official website is no longer working (still linked everywhere though!) and there is no link anywhere on the Bitshares website for downloading the PTS client!

Really the most basic component of any crypto is a website and a download link for the client, and we don't even have that anymore. This is the type of stuff that just kills investor confidence and results in the price decline we are witnessing. I am trying to be constructive here, but if this was a business whoever was in charge would be fired. And if there was supposed to be a handoff of responsibilities then somebody seriously dropped the ball.

I did not create this thread to point fingers - I am simply proposing a way forward, and I contend that it should be executed with urgency.

Offline Riverhead


Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 04:11:33 AM »
https://github.com/BitShares/BitShares-PTS/releases/tag/v1.0.0

The original protoshares website is down: http://invictus.io/bitshares-pts.php
See the broken link in the sidebar of the subreddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/protoshare/.
This link (also found in various places) is broken: http://invictus-innovations.com/downloads/

The link you provided (the github repo) is not found anywhere on the Bitshares website - not even on the page that describes Protoshares.

Edit: added broken link
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 04:22:38 AM by alphaBar »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 05:59:55 AM »
I want to clarify a few things:

1) Invictus will not be responsible for upgrading PTS. If we do not coordinate to get it done, it will not happen (see Dan's response here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6333.msg84980#msg84980)

2) DPOS is production ready. It is already deployed in BTSX which has 3 times the market cap of PTS.

Yes, it is true that the upgrade will take time to complete. This is further reason to begin the upgrade process IMMEDIATELY. We need to set a future block for the upgrade snapshot. Between now and then, there is minimal development work that needs to be done. Here is what the process should look like:

a. Future block is selected for the upgrade snapshot, let's say 1 month in the future.
b. The exchanges will configure a new DPOS-based PTS client. With regard to exchange functionality, this is essentially a clone of BTSX and should require minimal effort.
c. A few hours before the snapshot the exchanges will halt trading of old-PTS.
d. After the snapshot the exchanges will import the snapshot into the genesis block of the new-PTS and resume trading. Old-PTS will no  longer be supported by any exchange.

If the community agrees to migrate to a new DPOS blockchain, there is literally no reason (technical or otherwise) to delay the move. Aside from saying "it is hard", I would love to hear exactly (1) what is hard about it and (2) how waiting would alleviate that difficulty.

Offline kslavik

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 10:33:25 AM »
PTS was originally created as POW crypto currency, and I think it should remain as such in the future. There is an urgent need to upgrade difficulty algorithm and I'm all for it - KGW should be implemented as soon as possible.

Changes such as DPOS or BitsharesX DAC is kind of a violation of the original contract/promise but are good options for the future when most of the PTS are mined.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 05:40:12 PM by kslavik »

Offline Riverhead

Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 12:09:24 PM »
https://github.com/BitShares/BitShares-PTS/releases/tag/v1.0.0

The original protoshares website is down: http://invictus.io/bitshares-pts.php
See the broken link in the sidebar of the subreddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/protoshare/.
This link (also found in various places) is broken: http://invictus-innovations.com/downloads/

The link you provided (the github repo) is not found anywhere on the Bitshares website - not even on the page that describes Protoshares.

Edit: added broken link
Point taken.  Since PTS still plays a major role in the allocation of future releases from I3 and others using the Bitshares-toolkit it would make sense for it to feature more prominently on the updated public facing sites.  Given the small size of I3's dev team and the releases of late it wouldn't surprise me if this is on the plan.

Offline CLains

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 03:54:57 PM »
Immediate fix should be immediate.

Other than that I also think a new DPOS chain is good. The argument that PTS should not stand or fall with BitShares X is persuasive, ..

Mining should continue seamlessly via a subsidized multipool (remaining PTS is given to miners this way).

Snapshots should be coordinated to ensure nobody loses their stake. Social consensus must not be broken.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 04:59:58 PM »
Immediate fix should be immediate.

Other than that I also think a new DPOS chain is good. The argument that PTS should not stand or fall with BitShares X is persuasive, ..

Mining should continue seamlessly via a subsidized multipool (remaining PTS is given to miners this way).

Snapshots should be coordinated to ensure nobody loses their stake. Social consensus must not be broken.

Yes, you said it perfectly.

Offline kslavik

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 05:43:50 PM »
How about adding another option to the poll:

- Fix difficulty adjustment algorithm immediately using KGW, but start planning for DPOS transition in the future.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 06:02:24 PM »
Mining should continue seamlessly via a subsidized multipool (remaining PTS is given to miners this way).

I'm not seeing the point of keeping a multipool to donate to miners who are no longer performing a service for the network. As shareholders, we are entitled to select the most cost-effective solution for securing our shares. PTS was created with the intent of solving the problem of proof of work, which Dan explicitly described as "overpaying for security". Now that the solution we funded has arrived, are we expected to continue overpaying? And in this case it is worse because we would literally be giving away our money to miners who are busy providing security for competing currencies. Seems totally irrational to me.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 06:05:19 PM »
How about adding another option to the poll:

- Fix difficulty adjustment algorithm immediately using KGW, but start planning for DPOS transition in the future.

The difficulty algorithm can be fixed, but please explain your reasons for delaying the upgrade to DPOS.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 06:06:04 PM »
I don't see the need to continue mining. Miners can mine other currencies and exchange for this one, if that is what they want to hold. This is the same advice that other PoS coins give out.

Offline cass

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Re: PTS upgrade poll
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »
I don't see the need to continue mining. Miners can mine other currencies and exchange for this one, if that is what they want to hold. This is the same advice that other PoS coins give out.

agreed  +5%
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