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Offline Empirical1

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To me, BitShares DNS s acting like it invented a browser window with some new complicated TLD system, & added security features and you want to make adoption as seamless as possible (Like chrome vs. some other browser)  but there's no need, unlike crypto, the gateway between the two couldn't be simpler. So to me we're underselling ourselves by not making all .com's and .orgs newly available on a superior system. (At the moment it's like we're sharedropping our most valuable product onto an inferior ICANN.)

A .com on BitShares DNS has so much value because, once you have that your online brand can never be seized where as in ICANN they can take your online brand name away from you at any time. That is valuable, don't give it away for free!  The real $ are in selling .com & .org domains - the Rolls Royce TLD of value, status and recognition.

BitShares.org on ICANN may be blocked/seized at some point in the future. Wouldn't BitShares.org want to secure it's brand on BitShares DNS where it can never be touched/blocked by TPTB and where it is much more secure and private for it's users? I think BitShares.org would be willing to to pay & bid for BitShares.org on BitShares DNS.

Apple.com might not care about Apple.p2p but if we have a new superior DNS system that is growing in popularity with crypto-currency types and people who generally dissaprove of Big Brother then Apple.com will care about not owning Apple.com A LOT! If Ethereum.org doesn't secure Ethereum.org on the DNS system of the future, that's their loss not BitShares DNS!

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BitShares DNS - 'We're the decentralised orange one'
 
Everyone associates the existing TLD's with a blue colour, when you share them, or when you google/Yahoo them. By making ours Yahoo.com and BitShares DNS being a separate opt in browser everyone will know yahoo.com is not necessarily yahoo.com but there's a lot of value in an exact brand name.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately new businesses may not be able to build a strong brand identity around our .p2p TLD

-.P2P is unknown and has little value.
-.P2P the ICANN TLD could be bought/blocked at any time

Existing businesses wll already have a more well known ICANN TLD like Amazon.com or coinmarketcap.com that they've built their online brand and presence around, which they'd like to keep.  It's far easier for them to replicate that online presence & brand using their same TLD on BitShares DNS.

Instead of saying visit us at Bitshares.org or Bitshares.p2p  We could want to say  - 'Visit us at BitShares.org (Also on BitShares DNS)   

Now the rush will be on to secure the same TLD you brand your business by on BitShares DNS!

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While BitShares DNS is new and has little traffic, it solves all of the problems associated with ICANN. If it starts gaining traction within the crypto market, it will be incredibly important for businesses to future proof their online brand by securing their existing .com or .org  brand that they've worked hard to build on BitShares DNS, the DNS of the future!

Given the growing Big Brother trend and free people's antagonism towards it, BitShares DNS could easily be a likely sucessor to ICANN in just a few years and may perhaps be a preferrable choice for your target market, such as crypt-currency enthusiasts right away!  (Your business sales may increase by offering a BitShares DNS verson of your site.)

Will Coinmarketcap.com want to risk having built a brand name only for BitShares DNS to grow in popularity and someone offer a similar site under the brand name he's built?

---------------------------------

Has your  billion dollar poker brand, Pokerstars.com on ICANN been unfairly seized by an over-reaching government and all your customers blocked?
 
Pokerstars.com is still running!  'BitShares DNS users unnaffected!'

Has the oppressive Turkish government blocked Twitter.com?

Twitter.com is still running fine and is untouchable!  'BitShares DNS users unnaffected!'

Is bitcointalk.org  being spied on &/or having it's security compromised? Use bitcointalk.org for maximum security and privacy.

(In fact, given the tenous nature of Bitcoin legality can any Bitcoin related .com or  .org afford not to also put their online brand on BitShares DNS and will not many of their target market prefer & be comfortable using their well known domains on BitShares DNS in a very short space of time?)

« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 03:50:44 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline Empirical1

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 02:36:28 PM »
All existing browsers link to one ICANN system. So we're used to telling the difference between domains by their extension. But this is a whole new superior decentralised system. It's not a leap for people to understand that domains are only owned by their ICANN owners on the decentralised BitShares DNS if they're endorsed by them. 

People will know Apple.com on BDNS isn't Apple.com on ICANN unless it's endorsed the latter. Just like we know apple.net may not be apple.com

However having the same Rolls Royce domain name that's going to be hitting the crypto-currency user market right from the start is immediately valuable.

Apple.com might show people breaking their iphones when blockchain was blocked. That's a lot more damaging than doing something on Apple.p2p and generates a lot more interest from users. 

Then in forum replies you just write
Quote
'Hey have you seen this on Apple.com?, hysterical!"

(People will quickly learn oh Apple.com means it's the one on BitShares DNS & the link could even hot link to the BitShares DNS download & quick marketing page.)

In Ideal world, our browser would identify both systems so Apple or Apple.com would take you to Apple.com in BitShares DNS and a search for Apple or Apple.com (if it hadn't been auctioned yet) would return both -

Apple.com 
Currently available. Minimum opening bid $800.Next 25% Decrease 01/09.

Apple.com
Apple designs and creates iPod and iTunes, Mac laptop and desktop computers, the OS X operating system, and the revolutionary iPhone and iPad.

Once Apple has been sold a search may return -

Apple.com
Hey Apple,  you dumb idiots blocking Blockchain users. I've got your domain on the DNS system we're all moving to. 'How do you like them apples!?'   

Apple.com
Apple designs and creates iPod and iTunes, Mac laptop and desktop computers, the OS X operating system, and the revolutionary iPhone and iPad.

This is also a much simpler system, and more marketable.

BitShares DNS - A superior system with all the exisiting domains newly available! But a BitShares DNS .com domain can't be seized or blocked and your customers can use it with much more security and privacy than an ICANN one.

In this we'll be offering a system with all the same TLD's people are familiar with using and see as having value. The only caveat is that a domain on the superior BitShares DNS system might not be the same as one from the inferior ICANN DNS system unless it's endorsed by them but I think this is easy to understand.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 07:54:01 PM by Empirical1 »

sumantso

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 02:51:07 PM »
Just wanted to say I wouldn't pick orange - its difficult to see.

Offline tonyk

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 02:52:10 PM »
First, what is BDSN for god sake? – Google suggests I misspelled BDSM, and it does not look like you mean ‘Berkeley Digital Seismic Network’

Second – we will have an excellent platform to parallel sell quit claim deeds for prime real estate in New York, LA, Moscow, Tokyo and where ever it is profitable.  It might turn this side business is even more profitable who knows.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 03:02:16 PM »
Just wanted to say I wouldn't pick orange - its difficult to see.

Yes I agree.

I don't know what colour though. Red means danger. Purple is what a link looks like when you've already visited it in current search engines. And green is what the URL looks like under the name when you do a normal search and the https: is usually green.

First, what is BDSN for god sake? – Google suggests I misspelled BDSM, and it does not look like you mean ‘Berkeley Digital Seismic Network’

Second – we will have an excellent platform to parallel sell quit claim deeds for prime real estate in New York, LA, Moscow, Tokyo and where ever it is profitable.  It might turn this side business is even more profitable who knows.

You're right, Oops I was meant to be writing BDNS, it's just I think I've seen Toast referring to it by that abbreviation. I'll ammend my stuff to BitShares DNS in the post above.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 03:08:05 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline bytemaster

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 03:07:40 PM »
A bold move to be sure... but also one that is inviting scammers looking to setup a site that mirrors apple.com and collects CC cards. 

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 03:34:12 PM »
A bold move to be sure... but also one that is inviting scammers looking to setup a site that mirrors apple.com and collects CC cards.

Yes, this is the biggest one.

But to me, it's not that big an issue. Because everyone will be clear the decentralised BitShares DNS .com is not the same as a centralised ICANN .com unless it's endorsed by the latter.

If BitShares DNS is marketed as a completely separate DNS system where all the domains are newly available and may or may not be owned by the same owners of the centralised ICANN.com then the chance of me, who is terrible with computers handing over money to Amazon.com is about the same as me handing money to Amazon.blueberry. unless one of them is endorsed at the amazon.com site that I access via google chrome that I already trust.

I would maybe have a clear Buyer Beware sign though on the interface.

Buyer Beware: BitShares DNS is a decentralised completely separate DNS system to the one you are used to accessing via say google chrome or explorer. Amazon.com on BitShares DNS may not be owned by the same people who own Amazon.com on ICANN unless they are endorsed by them.

I would also make the top 10-100 000 BitShares DNS .com and other TLD domains very expensive at the start of the DAC.

So when users try to go to Amazon.com for the first year of the DAC they will just see a for sale sign with a minimum opening auction bid maybe even in the $  thousands.  (Declining every month)

This way users will become very familiar that these are different .com's and they are for sale to anybody
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 03:39:34 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline toast

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 03:36:48 PM »
No, we won't be selling ICANN domains on BDNS.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 03:39:56 PM »
No, we won't be selling ICANN domains on BDNS.

Ok, yeah I wouldn't expect you to change the system you're working on. This one is completely different & there's a market for .p2p like there is for a .bit the BitShares DNS is much better than Namecoin, so the current version will be a success for sure. 

But I guess a future version could try this, if this approach may appealed to someone else who might be thinking of starting a decentralised DNS system, but it's just an idea. Most of my ideas that I come up with are not generally doable anyway. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 03:45:20 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline toast

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 03:52:24 PM »
No, we won't be selling ICANN domains on BDNS.

Ok, yeah I wouldn't expect you to change the system you're working on. This one is completely different & there's a market for .p2p like there is for a .bit the BitShares DNS is much better than Namecoin, so the current version will be a success for sure. 

But I guess a future version could try this, if this approach may appealed to someone else who might be thinking of starting a decentralised DNS system, but it's just an idea. Most of my ideas that I come up with are not generally doable anyway.

Nobody will use an alternate DNS system if it breaks the *entire rest of the internet*.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 04:09:22 PM »
A move to decentralized allocation of .com would be most successful if managed via an "airdrop" to current .com holders, if there was wide industry support.   

The owners of ".com" would not want to give up their control and influence for nothing so they would have to be allocated a large stake in the new system.  But getting a government to agree to this is like getting the voting dac adopted by governments.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 06:36:53 PM »
Nobody will use an alternate DNS system if it breaks the *entire rest of the internet*.

Maybe it just seems that way because ICANN is a monopoly system that hasn't had a competitor yet.

What if... ICANN is just a forum.  Web addresses are just people's forum usernames. No-one has a monopoly on usernames.

What did you do when BTSX started?

- You tried to register 'Toast'. Why?
- Out of all the usernames in the world someone had already registered 'Toast' on the very first day.
- How many BTSX would you/others have bid for 'Toast' on BTSX if it was resellable? 
- Why have you/someone else not paid 0.1 BTSX for something like 'Toast1', 'Toast2' or 'Toast.p2p' on BTSX yet?

& while someone may incorrectly send money to Toast on BTSX or get scammed by them, it's very unlikely.
Your reputation is based somewhere else,  and your signature at that location, clearly says  BTSX:  nikolai




Offline toast

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 06:40:08 PM »
Nobody will use an alternate DNS system if it breaks the *entire rest of the internet*.

Maybe it just seems that way because ICANN is a monopoly system that hasn't had a competitor yet.

What if... ICANN is just a forum.  Web addresses are just people's forum usernames. No-one has a monopoly on usernames.

What did you do when BTSX started?

- You tried to register 'Toast'. Why?
- Out of all the usernames in the world someone had already registered 'Toast' on the very first day.
- How many BTSX would you/others have bid for 'Toast' on BTSX if it was resellable? 
- Why have you/someone else not paid 0.1 BTSX for something like 'Toast1', 'Toast2' or 'Toast.p2p' on BTSX yet?

& while someone may incorrectly send money to Toast on BTSX or get scammed by them, it's very unlikely.
Your reputation is based somewhere else,  and your signature at that location, clearly says  BTSX:  nikolai

So you're saying websites will advertise "go to overstock.com on ICANN" vs "go to overstock.com on BDNS" ??
People don't even know what DNS is, they're not going to be switching their DNS resolver depending on which site they want to visit...
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline theoretical

Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 06:05:14 AM »

A move to decentralized allocation of .com would be most successful if managed via an "airdrop" to current .com holders, if there was wide industry support.   

"Airdrop to current .com holders" is a technical problem.  I think I have a solution.

For this, I'll refer to "domains," "legacy domains" or "legacy DNS" as the mainstream technology most internet users currently use,
and "cryptomains" as the domains of some DNS replacement cryptocoin technology that attempts to airdrop to legacy
DNS domain owners.

So the goal is to give all (or almost all) legacy domain holders an airdrop of the corresponding cryptomain.  You need two things:
(1) An "inherited set" consisting of some big set of legacy domains, so they can't be registered unless you prove you own the legacy domain.
(2) Some way for current domain holders to prove their ownership and ("claiming your inheritance.")

To seed the inherited set before the genesis block:

- Obtain a list of domain names.  Common crawl [1] seems to be not under NDA, although it's hosted by a proprietary vendor (AWS).
Will probably need prefunding (in USD) to pay for AWS nodes to walk the data and extract domain names.
- Common crawl data is ~100TB, but most of that is content.  Verisign official .com database appears to be about ~2 GB [2].  So the per-node storage requirements for an airdrop to all existing .com domains would be reasonable.
- The base list is called the "crawl set."  This covers domains everybody knows about.  So google, yahoo, facebook, reddit, etc. will surely be included.
  No humans make decisions about what does or doesn't make the cut, and nobody at those companies has to be convinced to do anything special.  Most organizations
  that people actually care about will be included.

After the genesis block, the inherited set can be grown as follows:

- Any registered TITAN account can submit, for free, up to ~8 domains every ~24 hours, which will considered by the network for inclusion.  This makes up the "ping set."
- ~20 randomly selected delegates will ping each domain in the ping-set over ~60-day period by doing a DNS lookup (in legacy DNS) and seeing if it resolves.  We check the signature on the ping,
  and check that the delegate was the one randomly selected by the random process.  But the DNS lookup itself is not audited, because we don't want to DDOS anybody!  We just take the delegate's
  word for whether the domain worked or not.
- If >50% of the pings agree that the domain appears to exist, the domain is moved from the ping set to the launch set.
- Pings are initiated by ordinary users to make sure domains aren't inadvertently excluded.
- We may have a browser extension or DNS proxy, to aid in gathering domain names.
- ~8 months after launch, new pings can no longer be submitted.
- ~10 months after launch, the last pings are resolved and the inherited set is now fixed for eternity.

If you register a cryptomain, the process goes like follows:

- If the cryptomain is not in the inherited set, great!  You got your shiny new cryptomain.
- If you register a cryptomain in the inherited set, the registration will be ineffective until you prove ownership of the legacy domain.
- If your previously registered cryptomain gets at least 5 pings, with >50% success rate, at any point in time, the cryptomain will be suspended until either unsuccessful ping(s) bring the rate
  below 50%, or you prove ownership of the legacy domain.

You can prove ownership of the legacy domain by entering (the hash of) your account's public key in a TXT record in legacy DNS, and using that public key to pay a fee to the network.  ~200
randomly selected delegates check that the TXT record exists and contains the correct key over a ~60 day period.  If at least 20 such checks have been performed with greater than 90% success,
then you have successfully proven ownership of the legacy domain.

So basically:

- Holders of domains that were crawlable at the Common Crawl used to initialize the genesis block will have their domain reserved in the inherited set.
- Holders of domains that got / became popular enough that at least one user submitted them during ~8 months post-genesis will have their domain reserved in the inherited set.
- If you register a new cryptomain during the first ~8 months, you need to control the corresponding legacy domain to ensure the cryptomain won't be suspended.

The owners of ".com" would not want to give up their control and influence for nothing so they would have to be allocated a large stake in the new system.  But getting a government to agree to this is like getting the voting dac adopted by governments.

The beauty of an airdrop is that neither the ICANN administrators, nor the domain holders, need to consent ahead of time.  They're simply given a stake in the system that they can claim at anytime.

[1] http://commoncrawl.org/

[2] http://www.leandomainsearch.com/blog/16-how-to-get-access-to-the-official-verisign--com-zone-file
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline mdw

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Re: We could be selling .com's and .orgs on a superior decentralised system
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 06:56:05 AM »
To me, BitShares DNS s acting like it invented a browser window with some new complicated TLD system, & added security features and you want to make adoption as seamless as possible (Like chrome vs. some other browser)  but there's no need, unlike crypto, the gateway between the two couldn't be simpler. So to me we're underselling ourselves by not making all .com's and .orgs newly available on a superior system. (At the moment it's like we're sharedropping our most valuable product onto an inferior ICANN.)

How is a DNS resolver supposed to figure out which system's IP address to use? Surely you don't expect the whole world to abandon the existing DNS.


BitShares DNS - 'We're the decentralised orange one'
 
Everyone associates the existing TLD's with a blue colour, when you share them, or when you google/Yahoo them. By making ours Yahoo.com and BitShares DNS being a separate opt in browser everyone will know yahoo.com is not necessarily yahoo.com but there's a lot of value in an exact brand name.

The color displayed for a link is a decision made by the client. Speaking of which, the client isn't always a browser. Would the (alt)dotcoms work for email? Text browsers?


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