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Offline bytemaster

Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« on: August 16, 2014, 06:15:46 AM »

Delegates should be focused on getting the vote out, their pay should go up the more votes they get. 

Theory:  people not approving of a delegate shouldn't be expected to pay for that delegate so pay should be proportional.

This would significantly increase incentive for delegates to get people involved....
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Offline puppies

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 07:27:41 AM »
At first glance I like it.  Wont this create the incentive for end users to not vote though?  Since they are reducing their dividends by increasing the approval rate of delegates.
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Offline cgafeng

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 08:01:33 AM »
At first glance I like it.  Wont this create the incentive for end users to not vote though?  Since they are reducing their dividends by increasing the approval rate of delegates.
good point.
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Offline liondani

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 11:11:48 AM »
At first glance I like it.  Wont this create the incentive for end users to not vote though?  Since they are reducing their dividends by increasing the approval rate of delegates.
no if the first delegate on the list get 100% pay rate and the last one 1%, so the average total pay rate for delegates  would be always 50% !!! So you vote for the best and you want to get involved to go up the list!
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 11:30:14 AM »
Delegate #1 and delegate #101 would have the same responsibility for the security of the network but their incentives to stay honest would be different (given delegate # 101 doesn't see any big change to move up the list).   

Offline liondani

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 12:01:40 PM »
Delegate #1 and delegate #101 would have the same responsibility for the security of the network but their incentives to stay honest would be different (given delegate # 101 doesn't see any big change to move up the list).

going from 1% to 2% is double money !!!!   Right now ok it's nothing (due to present BTSX value and transaction volume), but think what it means when the network transactions grow due to adaption and due bitASSETS transactions fees and bigger volumes in general etc.
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Offline liondani

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 12:29:33 PM »
their pay should go up the more votes they get. 

 +5% +5% +5%


and I want to propose something CRAZY but maybe genius....

why not to pay all delegates that have more than x% of votes even if they are stand by delegates proportional to their votes !!!
think about it please! So even standby delegates are motivated to go up the list that are not close to the first 101 active delegates...

PS of course the active ones should get paid better for example delegate 101 even if they are very close (about same votes) with the delegate 102 should maybe get twice the money compared with the standby delegate 102 ...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 12:31:41 PM by liondani »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 12:45:10 PM »

At first glance I like it.  Wont this create the incentive for end users to not vote though?  Since they are reducing their dividends by increasing the approval rate of delegates.

Delegates already set a cap on their pay.


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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 01:24:28 PM »
At first glance I like it.  Wont this create the incentive for end users to not vote though?  Since they are reducing their dividends by increasing the approval rate of delegates.
no if the first delegate on the list get 100% pay rate and the last one 1%, so the average total pay rate for delegates  would be always 50% !!! So you vote for the best and you want to get involved to go up the list!

This isn't going to work so well. You need a minimum pay rate or there will be delegates but it could centralize. If it's based around how many people the delegate gets to vote then the delegate could just pay people in cash or in BitUSD to vote for them.

I don't see how this would work as intended.
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Offline luckybit

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 01:27:11 PM »
their pay should go up the more votes they get. 

 +5% +5% +5%


and I want to propose something CRAZY but maybe genius....

why not to pay all delegates that have more than x% of votes even if they are stand by delegates proportional to their votes !!!
think about it please! So even standby delegates are motivated to go up the list that are not close to the first 101 active delegates...

PS of course the active ones should get paid better for example delegate 101 even if they are very close (about same votes) with the delegate 102 should maybe get twice the money compared with the standby delegate 102 ...

Then you end up with a popularity contest but the problem is the most popular person or people might not be anything more than cult of personality. It doesn't seem to provide an incentive to have decentralization or to have quality delegates.

Maybe my understanding of it is incorrect but is popularity the only thing that matters for a delegate? Or are we measuring the ability of the delegate to attract followers similar to Twitter?

This has to be explained in more detail. I think it does have potential if we built Twitter like functionality into the Bitshares client so people could read blog posts or tweets from delegates and follow them but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense right now because there is no infrastructure in place to encourage that kind of community participation.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:30:20 PM by luckybit »
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Offline liondani

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 01:43:34 PM »
their pay should go up the more votes they get. 

 +5% +5% +5%


and I want to propose something CRAZY but maybe genius....

why not to pay all delegates that have more than x% of votes even if they are stand by delegates proportional to their votes !!!
think about it please! So even standby delegates are motivated to go up the list that are not close to the first 101 active delegates...

PS of course the active ones should get paid better for example delegate 101 even if they are very close (about same votes) with the delegate 102 should maybe get twice the money compared with the standby delegate 102 ...

Then you end up with a popularity contest but the problem is the most popular person or people might not be anything more than cult of personality. It doesn't seem to provide an incentive to have decentralization or to have quality delegates.

Maybe my understanding of it is incorrect but is popularity the only thing that matters for a delegate? Or are we measuring the ability of the delegate to attract followers similar to Twitter?

This has to be explained in more detail. I think it does have potential if we built Twitter like functionality into the Bitshares client so people could read blog posts or tweets from delegates and follow them but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense right now because there is no infrastructure in place to encourage that kind of community participation.

is this not what happen right know? The more popular or richest (because of more voting power) have the most votes?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 01:52:27 PM »
I like the idea of paying the standby delegates something, a sort of "on call" pay.   If they are paid proportional to their votes then they are really campaigning for voter turn out and have incentive to grow.

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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 01:55:03 PM »
I like delegates taking ownership for the network, giving them an economic incentive to improve participation by everyone.

I still think the game-theory behind delegates strategy is kind of backwards with weird incentives (e.g., delegates have the incentive to actively damage the network in the case of a price shock; delegates are "forced" to keep pay rates well above market value). This proposal has good intentions, but layered on top of the other backwards incentives might lead to a big problem:

If I'm running a node and I choose a 20% payrate to be my subsistence rate with 100% uptime. My vote total drops from 100% to 95%, and I have no ability to raise my rate, I now have the incentive to turn off my node. You then have to wait for enough people to vote you out, which may not happen quickly - and there is now a dead delegate for an indefinite amount of time.

I generally believe the market should sort it out:
1) delegates should be allowed to set the pay rates to whatever they want (I understand the argument against, perhaps you can allow for a publicized lag time between when it is announced and set. Give users the choice whether or not they want to vote for someone that chooses to run a dynamic operation where payrate tracks bitUSD, for example).
2) If users do not want a delegate in, they should be able to down-vote a delegate.


EDIT: For this plan to work, delegates also have to have the ability to raise their pay rate.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:59:08 PM by maqifrnswa »
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 02:09:13 PM »
I like delegates taking ownership for the network, giving them an economic incentive to improve participation by everyone.

I still think the game-theory behind delegates strategy is kind of backwards with weird incentives (e.g., delegates have the incentive to actively damage the network in the case of a price shock; delegates are "forced" to keep pay rates well above market value). This proposal has good intentions, but layered on top of the other backwards incentives might lead to a big problem:

If I'm running a node and I choose a 20% payrate to be my subsistence rate with 100% uptime. My vote total drops from 100% to 95%, and I have no ability to raise my rate, I now have the incentive to turn off my node. You then have to wait for enough people to vote you out, which may not happen quickly - and there is now a dead delegate for an indefinite amount of time.

I generally believe the market should sort it out:
1) delegates should be allowed to set the pay rates to whatever they want (I understand the argument against, perhaps you can allow for a publicized lag time between when it is announced and set. Give users the choice whether or not they want to vote for someone that chooses to run a dynamic operation where payrate tracks bitUSD, for example).
2) If users do not want a delegate in, they should be able to down-vote a delegate.


EDIT: For this plan to work, delegates also have to have the ability to raise their pay rate.

Actually I wouldn't have it multiply like that.   If you have a pay rate at 20% and an approval of 100% your effective pay rate will be 20%.   If you have a pay rate of 20% and approval of 21% you still get 20%.   If you have pay rate of 20% and approval of 15% then your pay rate is only 15%.

Effectively low-approval delegates cannot demand 100% pay rate.   But high approval delegates can get their pay rate.   
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Proposal: Max Delegate Pay = Approval Rate
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 02:15:03 PM »
Actually I wouldn't have it multiply like that.   If you have a pay rate at 20% and an approval of 100% your effective pay rate will be 20%.   If you have a pay rate of 20% and approval of 21% you still get 20%.   If you have pay rate of 20% and approval of 15% then your pay rate is only 15%.

Effectively low-approval delegates cannot demand 100% pay rate.   But high approval delegates can get their pay rate.
OK that's good. What happens if very few have enough votes to cover expenses? This is a problem now and possibly during price shocks

I also would like to see some way to allow delegates to get paid tracking another bit asset via dynamic payrates.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

 

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