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Offline CoinHoarder

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Don't take this the wrong way... I'm not here to spread FUD. I think it is important for the success of Bitshares to keep an eye on other projects that are in development and plan ahead accordingly. I am just interested in everyones opinion on the following projects. We already know Nxt is a competitor, but I haven't heard much talk about these projects aside from Ethereum over here.

Are these projects serious competitors? If Ethereum is not interested in a partnership with Bitshares, should we seriously think about building a decentralized programming DAC to compete, or continue with application specific DACs? IMO decentralized programming languages could be a threat to all application specific DACs. However, 3 out of 4 of these are PoW coins so that is one thing Bitshares has going for it versus those, and I think a decentralized programming language built on top of DPoS could outperform them.

Ethereum - decentralized programming language
Bitcoindark - a lot of features like Nxt, but with a decentralized programming language https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=684090.0
Emunie - a lot of features like Nxt, also with a decentralized programming language https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=755057.0
Nubits - seems to be competition specifically for the BitsharesX DAC (admittedly there's not much info about this out yet, but it sounds like it will be a competitor to BitsharesX.. there is more info on the Peercoin forums) - http://www.nubits.com/

Feel free to move this thread if you feel this should be in a different sub forum.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 12:16:04 AM by CoinHoarder »
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Offline CoinHoarder

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By the way, one thing Fuserleer said stuck out to me in his eMunie update the other day.

Quote
Turing complete scripting engine utilizing a Javascript/Java hybrid and GUI integration (Etherium +100)

This made me think.. maybe Ethereum is making a decentralized programming language harder than it really is. What if an existing programming language can be ported to a decentralized block chain? Is it just me, or does that sound like what he did (and/or is doing) with eMunie??

I could be totally off on this, but it may be possible.
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Offline bytemaster

My plan was to port Lua to run on a blockchain.
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Offline toast

Ethereum will win the developer community over, which can give them a big advantage once they finally become focused on utility.
NuBits has me a little bit worried... they say their design is very different from BTSX but I am confident they will come up with something good.
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Offline bitmeat

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My plan was to port Lua to run on a blockchain.

Can't wait! It's a great decision. Lua is the most efficient and lightweight scripting language I know of. The core engine was only like 26KB last time I used it.

Offline coolspeed

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My plan was to port Lua to run on a blockchain.

I appreciate it :)

In fact I prefer Lua to the V8 (Javascript runtime), just in my own personal esthetics.
But does the Lua have the basic data structures that a DAC on blockchain needs, considering what you blamed on Ethereum Script?
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Offline coolspeed

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IMHO, at least for now, the bottle neck of the DAC industry is far from a property of "scriptable" or "programmable".
It's mechanisms, performance, economic model etc.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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IMHO, at least for now, the bottle neck of the DAC industry is far from a property of "scriptable" or "programmable".
It's mechanisms, performance, economic model etc.

+ solid ideas like bitassets  :)

I guess I agree with you there, but I am looking into next year and the year after that already!! Some of the Litecoin guys told me I would never be happy with the speed of innovation, no matter what coin I ended up adopting when I was in the middle of my campaign to get them to start innovating... maybe they were right haha.

I like to speculate, think, and debate about the future. It is what I enjoy doing most in the crypto currency community. I am happy with the way and pace Bitshares is progressing thus far, and I look forward to helping nudge you guys in the direction I think you should go. ;)

I think a decentralized poker DAC would be huge too, but making an efficient mental poker is a very challenging problem. The awesome thing is that you guys have the utmost expert on mental poker on your team, Sergio Lerner, but as security analyst. You guys need to really get with him and talk about that, as it is a multi-million dollar industry if done properly... pokerstars just got acquired for one and a half billion + stock in Amaya gaming.

There are some efficiency problems with the mental poker framework and challenges in stopping collusion but I think they are solvable. If anyone is going to figure out an efficient MPF it is Sergio. I think the collusion/bot issues are solvable as well.. I have some ideas and have done a lot of research on it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 04:11:56 AM by CoinHoarder »
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Offline kripeecakes

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I am just delighted to read these sharing of ideas in such an open manner. Most of it is way over my head.  :P




Offline arhag

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I don't think Ethereum is any risk to BitShares X. I think the one-chain-to-rule-them-all model is going to unnecessarily slow down any currency or decentralized exchange DACs (or DAOs/scripts/DApps) since validators need to validate everything else happening on the blockchain. BitShares X runs optimized compiled C++ code purely for a single purpose: a decentralized bank and exchange.

Ethereum is interesting as an easy way for developers to launch new DACs that can interact with one another. And for that I am glad it is being developed. However, I still have some problems with the design, and I'm not just talking about POW. Even if Ethereum were to adopt DPOS, I don't like the non-concurrent imperative programming paradigm their design has adopted. I think it would better if it were designed around the Actor model instead. I would like to see separate validators for each DAC on the blockchain which have nothing to do with the delegates of the master blockchain. Then each DAC validator can evolve the state of the DAC at its own pace independent of the evolution of DACs they do not communicate with. I would like to see BitShares X exchange features built-in to the master blockchain so that BitUSD can be used as the "gas" as well as the funds for the DAC reserve which gives the DAC-internal tokens value. Finally, I would like to see more flexibility in the programming languages and VM environments used to implement the state evolution of each DAC. In fact, I am wondering whether it makes sense to just use a PNaCl sandbox to safely run any arbitrary native code that the DAC developers provide to implement the DAC business logic. I plan to write more about my thoughts on this later when I think through them more carefully. But the point is Ethereum (or more generally the concept of a meta-DAC that manages multiple inter-communicating DACs) is interesting, but I don't necessarily think Ethereum, as it is currently designed, is the way to go with the concept.

I haven't looked into Bitcoindark or Emunie yet to properly judge them. But at first glance, it doesn't appear to be anything to worry about.

There is not enough information publicly available yet about how NuBits solves the volatility issue and how it is any different than BitAssets. Until they actually have something substantial released, there is no point worrying about it.



 


Offline CoinHoarder

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Arhag, you had a lot of good points about Ethereum. There may very well be implications in running many DACs on one network due to the amount of processing power and sending all the data back and forth constantly. I do agree that the bare bones implementations of different DACs is likely to be much more efficient. Maybe Ethereum is not such a worry for those reasons.. I guess it depends on how it is built and I haven't looked closely at its inner workings.

Bitcoindark and Emunie could possibly competition.. but a lot of their features are still under development, so at least Bitshares will have a first mover advantage over most of their features. Also, they are doing a lot of things Nxt is doing except for the programming languages, so xt is probably still the biggest competitor out of the bunch.

I must say that Bitcoindark sounds like it has some interesting anonymity features. I need to look into it more.. something about "teleporting" whatever that means haha, but it is PoW so I don't like it right off the bat. I've been scammed one too many times by ASIC manufacturers... never again!

Nubits is being very hush hush, but I do know some of the developers are pretty good and am expecting a good project. They have been developing things in the crypto coin space for a while. I think BitsharesX has a huge advantage in the first mover advantage, so I have a hard time that they are going to be competition. They may take some market share, and Nubits/Peershares will definately help out Peercoin's value, but I still don't see it as being huge competition since now Bitshares is pretty much known for innovating bitassets and doing it first. That advantage will only get greater the longer they take to develop/implement Nubit.

So, I guess maybe these projects aren't such huge threats, but I think it's still good that everyone knows about them. They may have some good ideas that would be good to implement in Bitshares.. as I know people are likely to copy off of some of the things Bitshares is doing too. It is still good to have these conversations because everyone always seems to have a different opinion and you learn more that way. :)

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