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Offline leram84

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Is this supposed to be an asset?
« on: August 26, 2014, 06:12:04 AM »

Why give "shares" of this? Are they going to be publicly tradable? what is the point of trading Voting shares? Votes on what? Shouldn't votes be free? I dont get this. I get using the tech to facilitate decentralized trustless voting, but I dont get distributing generic "vote" shares.... Im sure im missing a lot here, any info would be appreciated.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 06:24:20 AM »
There are companies that specialize in providing voting services.  They have a business model that earns money facilitating voting.  This DAC is no different.
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Offline biophil

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Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 11:45:02 PM »
Why give "shares" of this? Are they going to be publicly tradable? what is the point of trading Voting shares? Votes on what? Shouldn't votes be free? I dont get this. I get using the tech to facilitate decentralized trustless voting, but I dont get distributing generic "vote" shares.... Im sure im missing a lot here, any info would be appreciated.

My understanding that I got from browsing the chatter about this DAC is roughly this:

Say you're a city and you want to elect a new mayor. You go to the VOTE DAC and buy up enough "vote" shares for each of your citizens. Then you give a "vote" to each citizen, and they are cast in the election.

Can anybody else help out here? What I described sounds pretty gimmicky.

Offline starspirit

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Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 03:50:06 AM »
I also do not understand the business model by which this DAC will provide value to its token holders (not covered in the white-paper). Is the idea that VOTES used in an election are thereby destroyed, providing an inflation of value for token holders? And if so, won't the number of VOTES in circulation fall very rapidly if there is an expansion of use around the world (e.g. imagine globally decentralised organisations using this as a commonplace tool)? It seems more intuitive to have a voting token that expands in quantity over time as a greater range, size and variety of election formats are encompassed, but then of course the ownership incentive needs to be structured differently. My understanding may be out, so any light that could be shed on the mechanisms here is appreciated.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2014, 05:11:01 PM »
Think of it as Software as a Service (SaaS), where there are only as many tokens created as there are registered citizens.  One token is given to each citizen and they use it to vote.  At a certain point, the accounts into which those votes are placed are locked and the tokens effectively "burned".  People can then audit the results and announce a winner.  This is how I took it anyway. 

It would not be the tokens themselves in this system...but the SERVICE performed...that gives shareholders in the Voting DAC (as a company offering the service) a profit.  Governments currently pay a LOT of money to centralized contractors to do this job...what happens to the votes at the end of the normal process?  The votes in that system, too, are essentially tokens limited to 1 per person...it is not the voting slip itself that has value but the service their system provides. 

Now just think about how valuable a Voting DAC that offers--for the first time in human history--completely transparent and auditable voting that has rules enforced by open source code as opposed to a few (often paid-off) actors running centralized services.  Hope this sheds some light.
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Offline leram84

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Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 04:21:23 AM »
sorry for the late reply... i still dont understand what exactly we are holding with these shares. If lets say the US gov wants to use this system for general elections so every citizen in the country would then be "distributed" a single "vote" is that the same as the shares that we are holding? I cant imagine thats the case, otherwise then lets say american idol wanted to use the dac as well, they would then just "generate" couple hundred million new "vote shares" overnight? it seems more like this is like a bitsharesME type thing. Basically a "stock" in this dac but one that appears to be only related by a social contract at best. IDK, im very confused about this one. im trying to understand how this business model provides value to the shareholders.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 04:39:06 AM »
sorry for the late reply... i still dont understand what exactly we are holding with these shares. If lets say the US gov wants to use this system for general elections so every citizen in the country would then be "distributed" a single "vote" is that the same as the shares that we are holding? I cant imagine thats the case, otherwise then lets say american idol wanted to use the dac as well, they would then just "generate" couple hundred million new "vote shares" overnight? it seems more like this is like a bitsharesME type thing. Basically a "stock" in this dac but one that appears to be only related by a social contract at best. IDK, im very confused about this one. im trying to understand how this business model provides value to the shareholders.

It is ok and it is relatively simple.  That is why I gave the analogy of the traditional voting companies that contract their services to the Government. 

The Shares you hold in the voting DAC are not the same as the tokens issued to each citizen for use in voting.  It is instead like having shares in a company that contracts voting services to the government.  The voting tokens themselves cannot be purchased as they are connected directly to the citizen to whom they are assigned.  The voting tokens are only valuable in that they are the means by which a transparent voting mechanism is realized. 

The Value of the shares are not correlated to the value of the voting tokens because the shares are like shares in a voting company, whose value is backed by the value of their service.  The voting tokens are not coins...they are simply tokens that provide a means by which votes are tracked.  Hope this makes sense. 

It is difficult for traditional bitcoin/altcoin lovers because in effect they have been trained to think of blockchain technology as only serving one purpose--value transmission.  However, Bitcoin and subsequent altcoins are simply DACs that focus on providing a service based in transmission of value from one party to another.  The people who have been here on bitsharestalk for the past 6+ months are the ones who have been studying how blockchain technology can essentially provide other services...thus they are new DACs that focus on providing a host of different and valuable services.  Thus the labeling of DACs investment tokens as "shares". 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 04:46:38 AM by theFuzz »
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Offline starspirit

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Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 07:13:40 AM »
So are you saying that the VOTES (is this still the right name for ownership in the DAC?) we received from the snapshot are shares in the DAC, while the tokens to be used in elections are not VOTES but some other set of tokens that are issued and then subsequently destroyed with each election? How does the DAC then earn its reward from each election? Thanks.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Is this supposed to be an asset?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 11:07:42 AM »
So are you saying that the VOTES (is this still the right name for ownership in the DAC?) we received from the snapshot are shares in the DAC, while the tokens to be used in elections are not VOTES but some other set of tokens that are issued and then subsequently destroyed with each election? How does the DAC then earn its reward from each election? Thanks.

No Problem.  The DAC would earn its "rewards" in the form of whatever currency it chooses to accept for them.  I am not certain which currencies this would be (at the moment) but Beyond Bitcoinx will be holding a Dev hangout with Adam from the FollowMyVote project at some point in the future so he could answer this to the highest degree of accuracy.  Basically, however, you are correct. 

I would assume that they would accept payment in bitUSD, bitYUAN, bitPESO, bitRUB...etc depending on the jurisdiction where they will be selling their services.
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