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charleshoskinson

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Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« on: August 28, 2014, 03:59:43 AM »

If someone was to hypothetically sharedrop a bitshares inspired fork of Litecoin, then what features would you like to see? What should the ideal AGS/LTC distribution be?

Offline luckybit

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 04:23:54 AM »
If someone was to hypothetically sharedrop a bitshares inspired fork of Litecoin, then what features would you like to see? What should the ideal AGS/LTC distribution be?
50/50 distribution or don't bother.

As far as features, all the BitAssets have to be different and it needs to experiment with features that the main chain isn't testing. That way we can test out more innovations between the two communities than we could if just one community were doing it.

But I don't think it's a good idea to waste time forking to Litecoin. None of the developers have expressed interest in maintaining the fork. The entrepreneurs aren't expressing interest in BitUSD. The users aren't expressing interest yet (although they might after Bitshares surpasses Litecoin market cap I think it's too soon). Our own community hasn't even figured out Bitshares yet enough to launch BitCNY.

Basically I would see it as a pump and dump if we fork for Litecoin mainly because that is a community of developers who don't care about innovation. Their coin is a clone of Bitcoin to help miners continue to profit and it did have a use back in 2013 but now? If you're going to fork why not just make Litecoin 2.0 and replace the whole Proof of Work?

Then replace all the miners with delegates.

At this point in time I would vote against a Litecoin Sharedrop Fork proposal. Give it to Ethereum or NXT if you're gonna promote a fork. My opinion on this probably isn't going to change until I see Charlie Lee himself endorse the fork because if he doesn't want it then what is the point?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:30:31 AM by luckybit »
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Offline jae208

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 04:28:51 AM »
I say between 10%-30% AGS and 70%-90% LTC I'd rather have 20% of something valuable than 50% of something not as as valuable.
In terms of supply I think it should be like 81,000,000,000 and the fork can be called Liteshares or something.

as far as features go.... Idk something Bitshares doesn't have I guess
Even faster transaction times if possible?
Smaller number of BitAssets like BTC, USD, CNY

BTW

Charlie Lee does not equal the Litecoin community
I think that the LTC community or any community feels threatened when something new comes out and
threatens to displace it but it doesn't have to be like that. By letting them have a greater percentage of the initial distribution they will hopefully embrace the gift.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:37:43 AM by jae208 »
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Offline luckybit

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 04:34:54 AM »
20% AGS and 80% LTC I'd rather have 20% of something valuable than 50% of something not as as valuable.
In terms of supply I think it should be like 81,000,000,000 and the fork can be called Liteshares or something.

as far as features go.... Idk something Bitshares doesn't have I guess
Even faster transaction times if possible?
So you'd rather give them your technology because of what? What do they have that is valuable? It's not innovation, their developers probably wont maintain it, the users can't figure out Bitshares X on the main chain yet so we can't expect even less sophisticated users to figure out a Litecoin fork.

If it's not 50/50 all that would happen is someone will fork the fork and make it 50/50. So 50/50 is the only way to get the majority of our community to play nice. If you give one community the advantage over the other it's going to trigger a competitive reaction and waste valuable resources.

The truth of the matter is, if we did that the Litecoin community would likely hilariously dump all their shares on us anyway. But shouldn't we know how our own market works before we spread it and should we wait for the Litecoin community to show signs of interest?

If we surpass them on coinmarket cap that is when the idea of a fork would make sense to discuss in my opinion. Also we should know what we are doing because without us to maintain the pegs it would be completely useless.

What we do agree on is calling it Liteshares. That is a badass name.
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Offline yellowecho

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 04:56:47 AM »
What benefit does sharedropping LTC add that launching bitLTC couldn't?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:13:25 AM by yellowecho »
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charleshoskinson

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 05:10:03 AM »
I'm actually curious about the justification for a particular chosen sharedrop percentage. Is there a rigorous model that could be developed to predict the exodus? Is proof of burn a better transfer mechanism? What consequences does the sudden drop in liquidity have from a mass PoB exodus from one chain to another?

There is also the inductive notion of figuring out the base case and model to onboard people into a CC ecosystem. Once it is sorted for N and you have a clear connection to N+1, it seems evident one could consolidate all chains into a family of related chains.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 05:19:43 AM »
I also think it is pointless experiment right now.
It was a good idea to do it before BTS X launch, just to test the DPOS. Maybe drop not only on Litecoin, but probably on the top 20 + BTC(with some scaling down).
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

charleshoskinson

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 05:25:03 AM »
Quote
I also think it is pointless experiment right now.
It was a good idea to do it before BTS X launch, just to test the DPOS. Maybe drop not only on Litecoin, but probably on the top 20 + BTC(with some scaling down).

I disagree. As with many in this community, you seem to be caught up in the "how does it make bitshares more awesome or make me more money" thought process. I'm considering the notion of transfer of incumbency value from one chain to another. If there will be a heterogeneous ecosystem of chains floating around in the cloud, then it seems like a good idea to understand how value can be transferred as an aggregate unit from one chain to another.

Litecoin is an ideal candidate because there is significant incumbency value, a healthy community and rather poor maintenance of the code of the project. Data collected from a whole chain value transfer would prove invaluable in strategizing how to do so with bitcoin itself.

Offline luckybit

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 05:36:35 AM »
Quote
I also think it is pointless experiment right now.
It was a good idea to do it before BTS X launch, just to test the DPOS. Maybe drop not only on Litecoin, but probably on the top 20 + BTC(with some scaling down).

I disagree. As with many in this community, you seem to be caught up in the "how does it make bitshares more awesome or make me more money" thought process. I'm considering the notion of transfer of incumbency value from one chain to another. If there will be a heterogeneous ecosystem of chains floating around in the cloud, then it seems like a good idea to understand how value can be transferred as an aggregate unit from one chain to another.

Litecoin is an ideal candidate because there is significant incumbency value, a healthy community and rather poor maintenance of the code of the project. Data collected from a whole chain value transfer would prove invaluable in strategizing how to do so with bitcoin itself.

Go ahead and sharedrop, watch the result. Who will make the most money? The people who know how to actually use Bitshares X already and the delegates. Not enough time has gone by to educate people on what Bitshares X technology is or how to use it and we want to discuss sharedropping it to the community least up to date on DPoS?

As far as strategy I think sharedropping could make sense but only if it's going to be maintained by developers. Are you going to maintain the chain if Charlie Lee shuns it? And do you have the credibility in the Litecoin community?

The politics is what you're missing in your equations. I discussed these exact ideas for Blackshares and approached the Blackcoin community leaders. They told me they'd get back to me and then launched PoS 2.0.

So if they don't want it should we give it to them anyway? As for 50/50 the math is as simple as you cannot get more fair than to split something 50/50. Let the market determine how the ownership ultimately shakes out but start out as equals.

I don't think incumbency has any value but that is just my personal opinion. I think we should promote innovate or die in the market.

What benefit does sharedropping LTC add that launching bitLTC couldn't?

If the Litecoin chain offered enough innovation (meaning totally different BitAssets, new functionality, new ideas), if it had developer support, then maybe I could get behind it.

The ultimate key is whatever our communities do we must push innovation forward. Innovation is what we can offer to the world and in order to compete on innovation we would need to sharedrop to a community of innovative developers. Litecoin devs just don't seem to be in that mindset so thats why I'm so against it.

Not against sharedrops or forks in general, just against it when it doesn't promote innovation for the world.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:40:58 AM by luckybit »
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 05:37:38 AM »
Quote
I also think it is pointless experiment right now.
It was a good idea to do it before BTS X launch, just to test the DPOS. Maybe drop not only on Litecoin, but probably on the top 20 + BTC(with some scaling down).

I disagree. As with many in this community, you seem to be caught up in the "how does it make bitshares more awesome or make me more money" thought process. I'm considering the notion of transfer of incumbency value from one chain to another. If there will be a heterogeneous ecosystem of chains floating around in the cloud, then it seems like a good idea to understand how value can be transferred as an aggregate unit from one chain to another.

Litecoin is an ideal candidate because there is significant incumbency value, a healthy community and rather poor maintenance of the code of the project. Data collected from a whole chain value transfer would prove invaluable in strategizing how to do so with bitcoin itself.
if you so believe just try it. At the end of the day even 2.5% for  PTS and 2.5% for  AGS will be acceptable, if you take all the effort to do it (your developers to do it) and do not bother the Bitshares developers even with a single email/PM.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 05:45:07 AM »
We're a very practical crowd here. I'm in favor of sharedrops from a marketing perspective when they are well-conceived. This one sounds mostly like an academic exercise, something to put out there in the...ether...and see what happens. Go for it, though I'm not quite sure what it builds.

Be sure you fork per the Social Consensus with allocations to PTS and AGS. If not, you know what happens to those who fork:


« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:55:42 AM by donkeypong »

Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 05:51:23 AM »
I'm not sure I see the point. Sure, we may get some new fans (Litecoin users), but wouldn't this just make competition for BitsharesX, and give Litecoin users a half stake in that competition for doing absolutely nothing? I don't think it would be fair to snapshot participants, or even people whom have bought since then.

Forking BitsharesX at this point before the user base is mature seems like shooting yourself in the foot, and would reduce liquidity on both centralized exchanges and in the bitasset marketplace.

On top of that, all of the Litecoin users could just dump on the market and it would be a risky investment for anyone that isn't a AGS/Protoshare/Litecoin investor. As it is now with BitsharesX, everyone has invested something to get their stake. Whether it be investing BTC/PTS in AGS, providing CPU processing power for (or investing in) PTS, or purchasing their BTSX on the free market, this all provides incentive for people not to dump BTSX on the market for less than what they put in and upholds the price. If you make a fork and give 50% of the money supply away for free, this incentive would not be as strong for the 50% who got it for free.

BitsharesX is too small right now to try to fork the the community IMO.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:59:30 AM by CoinHoarder »
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Offline yellowecho

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 06:01:52 AM »
This one sounds mostly like an academic exercise

Exactly.  And BitsharesX is a company so we should approach this as a business decision.  Would sharedropping add value to BitsharesX?  If so can that same value be achieved another way for cheaper?

IMO BitsharesX brings more value to Litecoin than Litecoin brings to BitsharesX.  The academic exercises can can be done for cheaper using other less expensive chains.. in fact, that same exercise could be done with PTS conversion.

Sharedropping for valuable tech like gateways  or Ethereum would be a different story..
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:04:45 AM by yellowecho »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 06:32:02 AM »
This one sounds mostly like an academic exercise

Exactly.  And BitsharesX is a company so we should approach this as a business decision.  Would sharedropping add value to BitsharesX?  If so can that same value be achieved another way for cheaper?

IMO BitsharesX brings more value to Litecoin than Litecoin brings to BitsharesX.  The academic exercises can can be done for cheaper using other less expensive chains.. in fact, that same exercise could be done with PTS conversion.

Sharedropping for valuable tech like gateways  or Ethereum would be a different story..

Do it, then Sharedrop to Ripple or Stellar (15%) in addition to PTS (10%)/AGS (10%)/btsx (15%)/LTC (50%).  Make it part of the consensus for Ripple/Stellar that in order for their holders to receive the sharedrop, they must agree to work on gateways for all forks of btsx that sharedrop on their holders (Stellar would give a better PR image though, imo, and--later--access to social media).

Add functionality to the bitsharesx wallet so holders of bitsharesx forks can use only the bitsharesx wallet to claim shares in literally all subsequent forks (that honor social consensus).  Enable people to easily switch between exchanges and send transactions from chain to chain.  This would further arbitration opportunities between chains and would get a huge user base (nearly all litecoin's and stellars' holders) to download the bitsharesx wallet.  These are huge incentives we can offer in return for forks honoring social consensus...and we all get more price stability across chains in addition to a larger user base and incentivize all users to download and use the bitsharesx wallet.
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Re: Litecoin Sharedrop Fork
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 06:32:30 AM »
Just a reminder ... if you do not sharedrop AGS and PTS by at least 10% .. you will not honor the social consensus and probably not receive much support from most parts of the community.
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