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Offline szert

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How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« on: August 28, 2014, 04:52:25 AM »

Hi,

  I've read tons of FAQs and forum threads here but I'm still a bit unsure about how the decision making works regarding the rules of  BitShares / BitshareX platform.

As I understand that the software is open source but the core development is mostly done by a company (is that Invictus? or bitshares.org?).

As much as i understand the delegates have power only on deciding which code they run (?). Does it mean that dev team has full control about setting/changing the rules because there is only one implementation yet? I understand that it's all in embryonic stage yet but is there any plan how it will work in the future ?

A little bit connected question: how the development effort is honoured in the long run?

Apologies if any of these has been already answered.

Offline robrigo

Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 05:34:36 AM »
Hi,

  I've read tons of FAQs and forum threads here but I'm still a bit unsure about how the decision making works regarding the rules of  BitShares / BitshareX platform.

As I understand that the software is open source but the core development is mostly done by a company (is that Invictus? or bitshares.org?).

As much as i understand the delegates have power only on deciding which code they run (?). Does it mean that dev team has full control about setting/changing the rules because there is only one implementation yet? I understand that it's all in embryonic stage yet but is there any plan how it will work in the future ?

A little bit connected question: how the development effort is honoured in the long run?

Apologies if any of these has been already answered.

From what I understand, Invictus and DACSunlimited collaborate to develop and release the code for BitSharesX. An important note is that BitShares refers to the ecosystem / DAC toolkit, while BitSharesX refers to the specific DAC for decentralized bank and exchange. I'm not sure if Invictus does all the development and DACsun only does releases or any specifics related to that, but that would be interesting to know. I am guessing they have their hand in the development as well. DACsunlimited is based in Hong Kong.

As far as the development effort, I know that Invictus recently announced they would put some AGS funds into BTSX: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7245.0. So their success is related to BTSX because they have "skin in the game".
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:37:59 AM by robrigo »

Offline donkeypong

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 05:50:34 AM »
Invictus developed the Toolkit upon which the DACs are founded. That is open source. DAC Sun released, and continues to release the updates for, the BitShares X DAC.

Offline szert

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 11:49:10 AM »
Thanks for the answers.

So does it mean that Invictus makes all the decisions on the DAC toolkit and DAC Sun Ltd. is in control of the rules of BitshareX?
Let's take the example of the account registration fee change. It has been increased recently according to some of the forum posts. Who made that decision?
I'm not arguing about that particular decision just thinking about the future: there might be minor and major tweaks needed in the complex parameters of the system. Some of those might affect different participants and stakeholders differently.  Any thoughts how these decisions will be discussed with the shareholders? Do the stakeholders have any say/vote on those apart from selling their stocks?

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
Thank you szert for asking a question about what I believe is the most important issue for the long term viability of any crypto currency community: Governance, or how are critical existential decisions made?

Etherium is going the way of Bitcoin, and forming a legally unrelated non profit organization / beurocracy which is another reason I don't like Ether as a long term investment.  Bitcoin also has quite a significant, slow, and hard burocratic way to get changes proposed and eventually into the system.  It is obviously easier for someone to just fork Bitcoin, rather than trying to fight that battle.  And of course all the alt coins springing up, because of this, is what is really holding crypto currencies back.

The educated minority expert consensus is clearly that dPOS/no mining is vastly superior to the proof of work algorithms and mining used in Bitcoin and Either.  But the minority consensus usually can't change the direction of the ignorant sheepish herd / beurocracy, and Bitcoin community, at least, is obviously headed for the all the lemmings jumping off the cliff and losing LOTS of money.


Whichever comunity manages to best solve this problem, and out compete all the competing crypto currencies, by co-operating and merging together, and enabling everyone to want to join and co-operate, rather that splitting, forking, and competing to the death.


As far as I can tell Dan Laramer, or THE bytemaster has ultimate authority.  And I trust him more than anyone else in the world, so that is a good thing.  He is way outperforming the Bitcoin and Either beuracracies.  But, even THE bytemaster makes mistakes and I think we can do WAY better through modern amplification of the wisdom of the crowd systems like those being developed at Canonizer.com.

Did you notice how ripple made the tactical decision to increase the supply of ripple, and thereby easily retake the very valuable #3 spot on coin market cap away from us?  Will the BitsharesX comjinity be able to make changes like that, if such should be necessary?  We certainly should have the ability to do things like that, on a dime, without any beuracracy to fight with.  All things like that are possible, the experts making the decision easily knowing how many people will be on board with any such decisions, and why, with modern amplification of the wisdom of the crowd system like those being developed at Canonizer.com.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 07:42:26 PM by Brent.Allsop »

Offline kokojie

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 07:41:45 PM »
Thanks for the answers.

So does it mean that Invictus makes all the decisions on the DAC toolkit and DAC Sun Ltd. is in control of the rules of BitshareX?
Let's take the example of the account registration fee change. It has been increased recently according to some of the forum posts. Who made that decision?
I'm not arguing about that particular decision just thinking about the future: there might be minor and major tweaks needed in the complex parameters of the system. Some of those might affect different participants and stakeholders differently.  Any thoughts how these decisions will be discussed with the shareholders? Do the stakeholders have any say/vote on those apart from selling their stocks?

You don't decide what goes on in Bitcoin development neither, why treat BTSX differently? Bitcoin transaction fee has changed at least 5 times in the past, I didn't get to vote on any of those changes. It's because the community mostly trust the Dev team to make good decisions, if you can't trust the Devs to make good decisions, you should either stay away from the eco-system or if you like the concept too much, just fork it and start your own eco-system.

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 07:47:33 PM »
You don't decide what goes on in Bitcoin development neither, why treat BTSX differently? Bitcoin transaction fee has changed at least 5 times in the past, I didn't get to vote on any of those changes. It's because the community mostly trust the Dev team to make good decisions, if you can't trust the Devs to make good decisions, you should either stay away from the eco-system or if you like the concept too much, just fork it and start your own eco-system.

In my opinion, this attitude is what is holding the entire Crypto Currency  market  back.  If everyone can have some ability to have some say on all decisions being made, and if power isn't centralized in some beurocratic bottle necked "dev team", the first community that can do all that will take over the world, and make a LOT of money by co-operating the best, in about a year.

We need to find some way so large institutuions can feel like they can join, and play a part, without fearing that the 'dev team' will not be able to listen to what they want/need in order for them to get on board.





Offline szert

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 08:36:52 PM »
Thanks for the answers.

So does it mean that Invictus makes all the decisions on the DAC toolkit and DAC Sun Ltd. is in control of the rules of BitshareX?
Let's take the example of the account registration fee change. It has been increased recently according to some of the forum posts. Who made that decision?
I'm not arguing about that particular decision just thinking about the future: there might be minor and major tweaks needed in the complex parameters of the system. Some of those might affect different participants and stakeholders differently.  Any thoughts how these decisions will be discussed with the shareholders? Do the stakeholders have any say/vote on those apart from selling their stocks?

You don't decide what goes on in Bitcoin development neither, why treat BTSX differently? Bitcoin transaction fee has changed at least 5 times in the past, I didn't get to vote on any of those changes. It's because the community mostly trust the Dev team to make good decisions, if you can't trust the Devs to make good decisions, you should either stay away from the eco-system or if you like the concept too much, just fork it and start your own eco-system.

I didn't ask this question to compare BTSX to Bitcoin. I do see the issues there. Neither I necessarily asked for voting.
I think the Bitshare(X) is a great concept and I do trust the devs, that's why I'm here :) We just need to think about these questions for several reasons (eg. gain trust from a wider community ). I don't think all these question should/can be addressed right now but discussions helps to form community consensus and create explicit answers for questions which can come up in any potential newbie like me.

(off topic side note: the transaction fee in bitcoin up to the client, isn't? Perhaps you referred to clients changing the default fee? Or is the fee up to the client with BTSX too?)


Offline szert

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 09:11:53 PM »
You don't decide what goes on in Bitcoin development neither, why treat BTSX differently? Bitcoin transaction fee has changed at least 5 times in the past, I didn't get to vote on any of those changes. It's because the community mostly trust the Dev team to make good decisions, if you can't trust the Devs to make good decisions, you should either stay away from the eco-system or if you like the concept too much, just fork it and start your own eco-system.

In my opinion, this attitude is what is holding the entire Crypto Currency  market  back.  If everyone can have some ability to have some say on all decisions being made, and if power isn't centralized in some beurocratic bottle necked "dev team", the first community that can do all that will take over the world, and make a LOT of money by co-operating the best, in about a year.

We need to find some way so large institutuions can feel like they can join, and play a part, without fearing that the 'dev team' will not be able to listen to what they want/need in order for them to get on board.

Indeed, these are the questions which I have in regards the long term future and I can't see an easy solution.

Democracy is painful, it's bureaucratic, it's slow, it's flawed because people don't care, sometimes they act like sheeps and sometimes they just can't make the hard but necessary decisions. But it's proved to be more efficient in a long run because of the mistakes what a centralised governance make sooner or later.
There is also a weird contradiction with a centralised decision making and DAC. The first word of DAC is Distributed. How much  company/system is distributed when the decision making is centralised? What would happen with BTSX (sorry for the morbid example) if a terrorist attack kills all the current decision makers? What would happen if the investors in the dev company go nuts? What would happen if the US legislation changes and decides that issuing digital assets is public offering therefore BTSX is illegal and they make it a criminal offense to work as dev on BitShareX?

In the other hand, I can vaguely recall some studies which say that in immature situations centralised governance is more efficient. See how big fail is to try to force democracy in Iraq or Afghanistan... And I see that trying to make BitShareX and the DAC toolkit governance decentralised in this embryonic state would paralyse it. Therefore I don't see this as super urgent matter for BTSX but for trust clear, transparent rules even in a centralised structure are important sooner than later.

What I believe that some kind of decentralised governance will be key at some point for long term success.

Anyway, I was wondering about that would it worth think about some form of  liquid democracy?

Offline bytemaster

Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 09:42:01 PM »
BTSX is right now is a living experiment which aims to be "adaptive" to meet the desired goals.    Once the "best practices" are discovered, I think governance will ultimately be managed by delegates via shareholders.   

If I went "off the rails" then the delegates could opt to go some other way.   For now most people seem to trust my judgement and intent.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xeroc

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 06:17:22 AM »
If I went "off the rails" then the delegates could opt to go some other way.   For now most people seem to trust my judgement and intent.
+5% except maybe A86 .. let's see where this is going!
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Offline kokojie

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Re: How can the rules of BitshareX change?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 02:51:45 PM »
Thanks for the answers.

So does it mean that Invictus makes all the decisions on the DAC toolkit and DAC Sun Ltd. is in control of the rules of BitshareX?
Let's take the example of the account registration fee change. It has been increased recently according to some of the forum posts. Who made that decision?
I'm not arguing about that particular decision just thinking about the future: there might be minor and major tweaks needed in the complex parameters of the system. Some of those might affect different participants and stakeholders differently.  Any thoughts how these decisions will be discussed with the shareholders? Do the stakeholders have any say/vote on those apart from selling their stocks?

You don't decide what goes on in Bitcoin development neither, why treat BTSX differently? Bitcoin transaction fee has changed at least 5 times in the past, I didn't get to vote on any of those changes. It's because the community mostly trust the Dev team to make good decisions, if you can't trust the Devs to make good decisions, you should either stay away from the eco-system or if you like the concept too much, just fork it and start your own eco-system.

I didn't ask this question to compare BTSX to Bitcoin. I do see the issues there. Neither I necessarily asked for voting.
I think the Bitshare(X) is a great concept and I do trust the devs, that's why I'm here :) We just need to think about these questions for several reasons (eg. gain trust from a wider community ). I don't think all these question should/can be addressed right now but discussions helps to form community consensus and create explicit answers for questions which can come up in any potential newbie like me.

(off topic side note: the transaction fee in bitcoin up to the client, isn't? Perhaps you referred to clients changing the default fee? Or is the fee up to the client with BTSX too?)

The default transaction fee in the official Bitcoin client is not easily changeable and is set by the Bitcoin Dev Team. You have to use a custom client to change the fee. Vast majority of Bitcoin users, pay the default fee.

The default fee in the BTSX client is changeable as of the current version I believe.


 

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