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Offline wesphily

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Imaginary to Real?
« on: September 05, 2014, 02:52:59 PM »

It is very cool that I can trade bitbtc/bitcny/bitusd/ect....   What is the long term plan for being able to cash out into the real thing? (i.e. if I wanted to cash out bitbtc to real btc) Seems strange to have to do 2 exchanges to get to the real thing.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2014, 02:53:54 PM »
It is very cool that I can trade bitbtc/bitcny/bitusd/ect....   What is the long term plan for being able to cash out into the real thing? (i.e. if I wanted to cash out bitbtc to real btc) Seems strange to have to do 2 exchanges to get to the real thing.

BTER allows trading of BitUSD to USD... I suspect markets will open up for all pairs over time.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2014, 03:03:38 PM »
I understand. That still requires that you go from bitsharex to whatever exchange to whatever you want. Will there not be functionality in the client to import btc/ect... so that you can trade real thing in 1 exchange and cash out in 1 exchange?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2014, 03:05:13 PM »
I understand. That still requires that you go from bitsharex to whatever exchange to whatever you want. Will there not be functionality in the client to import btc/ect... so that you can trade real thing in 1 exchange and cash out in 1 exchange?

Any user can provide the service of issuing BTC IOUs for a user issued BTC and then trade that against BitBTC.   But there is no direct tie between BTC and BitBTC. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2014, 04:41:55 PM »
I don't understand the value of the exchange then. To me, it seems like a very high tech training ground. Once you are ready to play for real you go to a centralized exchange. Is there not a partnership that could be found that would be seamless to the client user? (i.e. user buys bitbtc. Wants to cash out so he clicks cash out button. bitshare-x client asks for a btc address to send btc to. BTC is sent to that address) Is this something that you guys have thought about? I'm not trying to negative/fud/ect... I'm just trying to figure out how this can become applicable. I want this to become more than a training ground.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2014, 04:47:03 PM »
I don't understand the value of the exchange then. To me, it seems like a very high tech training ground. Once you are ready to play for real you go to a centralized exchange. Is there not a partnership that could be found that would be seamless to the client user? (i.e. user buys bitbtc. Wants to cash out so he clicks cash out button. bitshare-x client asks for a btc address to send btc to. BTC is sent to that address) Is this something that you guys have thought about? I'm not trying to negative/fud/ect... I'm just trying to figure out how this can become applicable. I want this to become more than a training ground.
- you are playing for real on the btsx exchange
- people have made profits over the btsx exchange
- NO one can take your money from you ... neither by fraud, hacking, nor by governments
- it's cheaper (basically a transaction fee in most cases)
- its faster (10 secs - no need to wait for X confirmations on the exchange)
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2014, 04:56:14 PM »
I don't understand the value of the exchange then. To me, it seems like a very high tech training ground. Once you are ready to play for real you go to a centralized exchange. Is there not a partnership that could be found that would be seamless to the client user? (i.e. user buys bitbtc. Wants to cash out so he clicks cash out button. bitshare-x client asks for a btc address to send btc to. BTC is sent to that address) Is this something that you guys have thought about? I'm not trying to negative/fud/ect... I'm just trying to figure out how this can become applicable. I want this to become more than a training ground.
- you are playing for real on the btsx exchange
- people have made profits over the btsx exchange
- NO one can take your money from you ... neither by fraud, hacking, nor by governments
- it's cheaper (basically a transaction fee in most cases)
- its faster (10 secs - no need to wait for X confirmations on the exchange)

This is all true which is why I was initially excited. However, this seems short sited. Once you are ready to cash out you have to go into a bit that has a pair on a centralized exchange. Then you have to go to bitcoin. Then another place (coinbase?) then cash out. Is there not a way to form a relationship with coinbase directly so that if you were ready to cash out you could using the client?

I'm in bitusd. I hit cashout and it sends money to my bank. On the backend the client calls on coinbase and coinbase has some sort of fancy link to my btsx account which allows me to cash out from the client. I'm sure what I just said is highly insecure but, the idea is that you skip the other exchanges. If that means that coinbase has to start accepting bitsx/bitusd like it does bitcoin and you have to send to them to cash out then fine. What I want to avoid is having to go from exchange to exchange to exchange.

Offline Riverhead

Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 05:10:05 PM »
Remember on a centralized exchange you aren't actually trading on the assets respective blockchains either. You are trading BTER-BTC and BTER-USD. It doesn't become "real" until you move it into either a wallet you control or your bank account.

BitSharesX is just more transparent in calling it bitBTC and bitUSD vs the exchanges which make it look like you're trading the real thing. If there was ever any doubt we just need to look at what happened when people learned that Mt. Gox didn't actually have the reserves to cover their IOU's. Same with BTER when they had 50MM NXT shares stolen. If everyone decided to cash out of NXT they would have had to come up with the real thing on their own.

There are two things that will make this more real: 1) Vendors start accepting bitUSD like they are currently starting to accept BTC and 2) Ripple follows through with their idea to provide gateways from bitAsset to physical asset.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 05:19:14 PM by Riverhead »

Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 05:21:33 PM »
I agree that centralized exchanges are equally imaginary. The difference is that you can cash out in all pairs that they trade except usd. With bitsharesx you can't. Perhaps this wouldn't matter if we eliminated several of the pairs and only kept what we expect to have gateway services for.

Also, lets say that a gateway service does open up for bitusd. It would be nice if that service had functionality from the client instead of the following: client > gateway > bank (or possibly another jump after)  Instead: client > bank.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 05:25:46 PM »
So basically you are complaining that you are trading a derivative instead of the real assets?
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline Riverhead

Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 05:29:05 PM »
We're on the same page for sure. That functionality will come. Remember how hard it used to be to buy Bitcoin? Unless you were a miner it was a bit shady and super risky. Once BitSharesX gains more users and market cap it'll drive that innovation. One thing I'm trying to get away from personally is giving BTC more credit than it's due. Not to disrespect it but we can all agree that once the telephone was invented and propagated no one really needed the telegraph anymore. I feel once people really get their head around Crypto 2.0 the shine of BTC will start to fade.


/soupbox :)

Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 05:31:35 PM »
Not complaining.......ugh..........If this is what this thread is going to turn into then I'll stop now.

What I'm trying to convey is an idea that I think would add a lot of value to bitshares-x. Lets forget about pairs and only thing bitusd. If I want to go from bitusd to real usd then I have to do the following: bitusd to bter > bter to bitcoin > bitcoin to coinbase > coinbase to bank. That is perfectly acceptable to adopters of crypto currency because we are used to it. That is not ok in real world. Now lets say there is a gateway server: bitusd > gateway service > bank (or possibly another hop) That's better but still not best. Now imagine this: bitusd > bank (utilizing gateway service as a backend item that the user does not have to directly interface with after setting up an account or whatever.)

Now lets add pairs. bitcny > gateway service > Chinese bank.   bitpts > gateway service > pts wallet.     Imagine everywhere it says gateway service it happens on the backend directly from the client.

Does this make sense?

Offline xeroc

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 05:35:15 PM »
Not complaining.......ugh..........If this is what this thread is going to turn into then I'll stop now.

What I'm trying to convey is an idea that I think would add a lot of value to bitshares-x. Lets forget about pairs and only thing bitusd. If I want to go from bitusd to real usd then I have to do the following: bitusd to bter > bter to bitcoin > bitcoin to coinbase > coinbase to bank. That is perfectly acceptable to adopters of crypto currency because we are used to it. That is not ok in real world. Now lets say there is a gateway server: bitusd > gateway service > bank (or possibly another hop) That's better but still not best. Now imagine this: bitusd > bank (utilizing gateway service as a backend item that the user does not have to directly interface with after setting up an account or whatever.)

Now lets add pairs. bitcny > gateway service > Chinese bank.   bitpts > gateway service > pts wallet.     Imagine everywhere it says gateway service it happens on the backend directly from the client.

Does this make sense?
absolutly .. but you must understand that BitSharesX is just 6 weeks old .. and we already have BTer which (by the way) trade bitUSD/USD
we also have an announcement for a ripple gateway for bitGLD -> Gold
and bytemaster mentioned a meeting at a conference where he convinced someone to work on a bitUSD ripple gateway (if I recall correctly)

So things are on their way already .. but need some more time ..
compared to Bitcoin theses are small steps .. but it took bitcoin 5+ years to get there ..
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Offline wesphily

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 05:39:53 PM »
I understand it takes time. I just wanted to make sure that something like this will happen. More specifically, I wanted to make sure that we could find a way to do it all from the client so that we can stop with all the exchanges.

Offline kisa

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Re: Imaginary to Real?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2014, 05:46:52 PM »
assuming Fidor (or some other) bank serves as USD gateway in Ripple, it could also serve as bitUSD gateway in Ripple... so one would just need to open USD and bitUSD accounts with one bank, which would do the conversion at prevailing Fidor-bitUSD/Fidor-USD exchange rate within Ripple... would this make sense? Without ripple, I guess you would need a bank which deals in both bitUSD and USD, while using some centralised exchange to do the conversion. For now, is hard for me to understand, how one could move bitUSD into bank's USD, if the bank doesn't have bitUSD capacity. It has to be able to legally accept bitUSD. Until that becomes possible, its upto customer to arrange for the conversion, which is for now via centralised exchange...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 06:50:58 PM by kisa0145 »

 

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