Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role  (Read 710 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thom


I've looked at alot of material and media, but I have only heard a small bit on what delegates are and what their role is in the bitshare ecosystem.

If I just missed it but it is well covered somewhere, I'd appreciate it if someone would point me to the relevant media or webpage that describes this thoroughly.

Thanks everyone!
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html


Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2014, 09:48:02 PM »
Thx!
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 02:38:35 AM »
I generally understand the DPOS concept of the owners of BTSX having voting power proportional to the number of shares they own, but I'm not sure how that works in practice. If there's a better source of answers to these questions (I imagine they've been asked before, but not sure how to search for it. I was pointed to another thread above but that was thin on details about how delegates are elected)

I need an example with numbers that describe how the 101 delegates are chosen. As a crude example, if you had:

- 50,000 shares (total) available for purchase.
- Shareholder X with 5000 shares, so a 10% stake,
- Shareholder Y has 20,000 with a 40% stake,
- And Shareholder Z has 22,500 shares or a 45% stake.

The remaining 5% of the shares are scattered amongst many shareholders.

Q1) How does the "proportional power" of the shareholders translate to delegate votes?
Q2) Do ALL shareholders get to vote, and do some get more votes than others?
Q3) How many total votes are there?
Q4) Do shareholders have 1 vote for each BTSX share they own,  and the delegates are chosen by the top 101 candidates with the most votes? (assuming there are at least 101 people that want to be delegates; might not be that many now, but clearly there would be very soon after a major public launch event)

I've listened to several audios where delegate slates are discussed, but it just fogs me over as that is a level of abstraction on top of the basics which I don't understand well. I believe I do understand the purpose of delegate slates, and that is to help shareholders make delegate selections. The slates serve as recommendations. I've hear some of the discussions regarding the question of how do shareholders have confidence in slates, what reputation schemes would help and various issues of managing / administering the slates.

And lastly, do the delegates do the very same work "to secure the network" as do miners in the bitcoin ecosystem?

I can't say I fully understand how finding the next prime number to be used as a cryptographic key in a public/private key pair "secures" the network or "confirms" transactions (a transaction requires using a previously generated key pair, so how does finding the next one confirm anything?)

I've just taken those terms on face value and assumed smarter minds than mine have worked out the scheme to ensure the key pairs are available for use. But since the role of a delegate is pretty much that of a BTC miner (is that right?), I better spend the mental effort to understand it better.

The depth of the blockchain technology is great and the application of it for bitcoins has been extremely fast, all I've been able to do is jump in the middle and learn what I can. I haven't seen a systematic review of the building block concepts, or, more accurately I have but I couldn't absorb all of the info in a way it's organized and indexed for retrieval in my mind.

I recall a few of Andreas Antonopoulos' youtube videos and various podcasts he's done, but the details of mining haven't quite fallen into place. I couldn't explain it to someone else.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • View Profile
Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 11:20:40 AM »
Q1) How does the "proportional power" of the shareholders translate to delegate votes?
The more shares you have to more votes you have, see below.
Q2) Do ALL shareholders get to vote, and do some get more votes than others?
All shareholders get to vote proportional to their stake.
Q3) How many total votes are there?
DPOS applies approval voting as compared to delegation voting. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS#Voting_Algorithm
That means the answer to your question is, for the current DPOS implementation of BTSX: 101*2bn.

Q4) Do shareholders have 1 vote for each BTSX share they own,  and the delegates are chosen by the top 101 candidates with the most votes? (assuming there are at least 101 people that want to be delegates; might not be that many now, but clearly there would be very soon after a major public launch event)
With delegation voting (note that a modified DPOS with delegation voting would be possible to: In delegation voting the # of total votes would be 2bn) every shareholder has the same amount of vote units (size of his stake) for 101 delegates. That means a shareholder can vote with his full stake for maximum 101 delegates = a shareholder can approve 101 delegates.

I would recommand reading the wiki (see above) and the DPOS whitepaper here http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/

If I approve say 50 delegates, my delegate slate consists out of these 50 delegates. That allows other shareholders to vote as I did if they trust my judgement and if I publish my slate (not actually sure if I can decide to publish or his my slate; I think I can't hide it).

Quote
And lastly, do the delegates do the very same work "to secure the network" as do miners in the bitcoin ecosystem?
Yes, they both hash transactions and refer to the hash of the previous block and timestamp their block. Difference is the valuable resource miners and delegates have to prove to control. Miners prove to control hashing power, delegates prove to "control" / have received shareholder votes. On why a valueable resource matters I would read and listen to how Bitcoin works in general: I'd read the original sathosi whitepaper and listen to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE

Quote
I can't say I fully understand how finding the next prime number to be used as a cryptographic key in a public/private key pair "secures" the network or "confirms" transactions (a transaction requires using a previously generated key pair, so how does finding the next one confirm anything?)
You do not need to understand elliptic curves (I don't understand that and very little people do really, it is a building block with a known functional output, that is enough, it has proven to work) to understand the above.

 Out of interest, what do you consider the best comprehensive overview on blockchain technology you have found?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:23:32 AM by delulo »

Offline svk

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 11:34:00 AM »
Delulo answered most of the questions, I just wanna add some info to your Q4:

Quote
Q4) Do shareholders have 1 vote for each BTSX share they own,  and the delegates are chosen by the top 101 candidates with the most votes? (assuming there are at least 101 people that want to be delegates; might not be that many now, but clearly there would be very soon after a major public launch event)

Yes you get 1 vote for each BTSX, but like Delulo said you can distribute your votes to multiple delegates without dilution, they all get 1*your BTSX holdings in votes.

There are currently 5186 accounts registered as delegates, out of those 5186 only 888 currently have a non-zero vote balance. If we  guesstimate 4 delegate accounts registered per unique person as the average, that gives us 1296 individuals that have registered a delegate, and 222 who have votes for them.
Worker: dev.bitsharesblocks

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 06:33:03 PM »
I've been reading the info you all have supplied above. As I was reading I thought of a few questions, but they seemed to have evaporated in the last 30 minutes. Distractions  :(  I definitely have a better understanding, but need to iterate through the materials again before I could explain it to someone else.

But I'm getting there!

Thank you to everyone that responded to my questions.

Oh, here's one I remember: when a problem occurs that requires a "fork", does that mean a break in the linked-list structure of the block chain or client code or the code used by delegates? I presume the signing process used to create a transaction in the blockchain is different code than the BTSX client I downloaded, right?

Another one: Is it required for delegates to have hardware with a high bandwidth network conection, or can VPS hosting be used? How much human interaction is required to "sign" the blocks, or is this automated and just monitored?
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 09:59:00 PM »
Out of interest, what do you consider the best comprehensive overview on blockchain technology you have found?

Hmmm, that's a tough question to answer. I've heard discussions and been reading material on bitcoin / bitshares going back to late Feb of this year. With so much info it's very difficult to pin down one strategic piece that was above the rest.

I recall watching one of the Andreas Antonopolis' videos and that had a major impact. That was one of the earliest I recall. I guess I was prepped somewhat by Stephan Molyneus' discussion of bitcoin, but that didn't have much technical content, it was more of the high level, distant benefits like multiple party contracts on the blockchain, self publishing with protections etc.

I also stumbled onto Michael Deans radio show and the series of programs he did with Derrick about DNS, namecoin and MeowBit. That was my first investment, a whopping $10 worth of NMC. When I was finally ready to register a .bit domain I discovered Dean jumped ship onto the BitShares boat and was all excited about it. He interviewed Daniel several times and I was pretty sold on how the I2 approach to DNS management was far superior to the NMC plans. That was back in April. Since then I'd have to say most of my input has come from interviews of Daniel and audio discussions I've heard with Adam Levine et al on bitcointalk. In terms of media audio is my preference, video / html tied for 2nd place.

I've only gotten seriously interested in BTSX recently in the last 2 or 3 weeks, investing much more time here on the forum than any time before. The locomotive is gaining speed rapidly and I don't want to miss the train. I'm running alongside as fast as I can and I'm almost out of breath trying to grab hold of anything I can to climb aboard.

Hope that answers your question. It may not be very precise but frankly it's a deep subject and it seems like a blur looking back.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 10:02:04 PM »
There are currently 5186 accounts registered as delegates, out of those 5186 only 888 currently have a non-zero vote balance. If we  guesstimate 4 delegate accounts registered per unique person as the average, that gives us 1296 individuals that have registered a delegate, and 222 who have votes for them.

How did you get that info anyway svk?
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline tonyk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
    • View Profile
Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 10:10:08 PM »
There are currently 5186 accounts registered as delegates, out of those 5186 only 888 currently have a non-zero vote balance. If we  guesstimate 4 delegate accounts registered per unique person as the average, that gives us 1296 individuals that have registered a delegate, and 222 who have votes for them.

How did you get that info anyway svk?

He got it because he IS GOOD! Re: http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/home
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 10:31:32 PM »
There are currently 5186 accounts registered as delegates, out of those 5186 only 888 currently have a non-zero vote balance. If we  guesstimate 4 delegate accounts registered per unique person as the average, that gives us 1296 individuals that have registered a delegate, and 222 who have votes for them.

How did you get that info anyway svk?

He got it because he IS GOOD! Re: http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/home

That doesn't entirely answer my question. Perhaps I need to rephrase it.

Does the data for that website come from blockchain analysis?  Are the "new users" new accounts or new registrations?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:34:17 PM by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline tonyk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
    • View Profile
Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:58 PM »
Which part of the data?

Only 4 account / user is an assumption. As the svk's post clearly states so.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:37:56 PM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 10:42:59 PM »
Which part of the data?

Only 4 account / user is an assumption. As the post clearly states so.

Which part? all of it. I see the assumption in his post, but what produced that data? Is it a forensic analysis of the blockchain, an instrumented version of "mining" code or what? I had a question above that hasn't yet been answered about the software used by the delegates to sign the blocks. That's a possibility in my mind for where this data might come from, that and the blockchain itself.

It may help me to visualize exactly what the data structure of the blockchain actually is. I'm a SW dev so I understand such things, tho I realize those tuned into this thread may not be.

I'm somewhat confused, as the website you pointed me at (BitsharesBlocks) has lots of info that I didn't think existed on the blockchain alone, like the list of "new users".
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:46:14 PM by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline tonyk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
    • View Profile
Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 10:51:18 PM »
If you are anywhere near IT, you should not be afraid to run the client and execute commands in it...That's just my way of thinking...I am no pro in that field though.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Thom

Re: I would like a comprehensive description of delegates and their role
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2014, 11:12:12 PM »
If you are anywhere near IT, you should not be afraid to run the client and execute commands in it...That's just my way of thinking...I am no pro in that field though.

I'm not afraid to do that, it's an interesting suggestion. I've looked briefly at the console and list of commands and it is quite large. It would be a rather tedious way to learn. I've got decades of SW development and some IT experience. The BitharesBlocks website has info that seems to come from a vantage point not available to client nodes. I could easily be wrong but in my mind there seems to be 2 major pieces of code: 1) the client node software, currently version 0.4.15-a and code used by delegates to sign / create transaction blocks.

If all of the info on the BitharesBlocks website comes from the same version 0.4.15-a client software I'm running (using python scripts or API calls available in the client), that surprises me. It doesn't shock me, just not the picture of the code architecture I had envisioned. That's the reason for my questions.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

 

Google+