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busygin

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S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« on: September 11, 2014, 12:52:37 AM »

Hi,
Some people proposed bitassets for commodities (oil and gold) as the next step for BitsharesX. I believe it would be more promising to start bitassets for major market indices, like S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq. And possibly major Asian indices too. At least, real-time feeds for market indices are easier to get than for commodity futures, though I'm not entirely sure if there is a way to re-publish them for free. It would also potentially bring some long-term retirement investments to BitShares universe, and exiting a BTSX position to S&P500 instead of USD looks more logical if the money is used for capital gains, not just capital preservation.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 01:11:28 AM by busygin »

Offline CLains

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 01:00:35 AM »
We need to hook all the different demographics.
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Offline theoretical

Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 01:03:52 AM »
Regulators will probably look harder at that, than they would at currency activity.  So it should probably be a different chain, backed by a different company.

If BTSX and BitDJIA are on different chains, and a major jurisdiction like the US decides BitDJIA is illegal but BTSX is legal, then BTSX shouldn't take a bad hit.  If BTSX and BitDJIA are on the same chain, then any regulatory problems for BitDJIA have a decent chance of becoming problems for BTSX.
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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 08:35:08 AM »
I think best way to do this would be a separated chain for peggs to indeces like Dow, NASDAQ, DAX and others .. not only for legal reasons but also for maintenance and compliance
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Offline tonyk

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 08:37:05 AM »
I think best way to do this would be a separated chain for peggs to indeces like Dow, NASDAQ, DAX and others .. not only for legal reasons but also for maintenance and compliance
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Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 09:11:50 AM »
I think best way to do this would be a separated chain for peggs to indeces like Dow, NASDAQ, DAX and others .. not only for legal reasons but also for maintenance and compliance
foo you are finally up, I can go to sleep now, knowing the forum is in good hands. Good night.
lol .. have sweet dreams :)
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Offline oldman

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 07:00:41 PM »
Hi,
Some people proposed bitassets for commodities (oil and gold) as the next step for BitsharesX. I believe it would be more promising to start bitassets for major market indices, like S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq. And possibly major Asian indices too. At least, real-time feeds for market indices are easier to get than for commodity futures, though I'm not entirely sure if there is a way to re-publish them for free. It would also potentially bring some long-term retirement investments to BitShares universe, and exiting a BTSX position to S&P500 instead of USD looks more logical if the money is used for capital gains, not just capital preservation.

Easy way, at least initially, would be to peg a few of the larger index ETFs.

ie. If investors want exposure to the SP500 just peg VOO.

 

busygin

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 07:20:21 PM »
I don't think getting real-time quotes for an ETF is easier than for indices themselves. S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq can be looked up on Google, Yahoo, etc. Getting real-time VOO quotes requires a deal with NYSEARCA.

Easy way, at least initially, would be to peg a few of the larger index ETFs.

ie. If investors want exposure to the SP500 just peg VOO.

Offline jsidhu

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 07:46:09 PM »
I don't think getting real-time quotes for an ETF is easier than for indices themselves. S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq can be looked up on Google, Yahoo, etc. Getting real-time VOO quotes requires a deal with NYSEARCA.

Easy way, at least initially, would be to peg a few of the larger index ETFs.

ie. If investors want exposure to the SP500 just peg VOO.

Why would you "look up" prices? Wouldn't you let a peg do its thing naturally?
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Offline biophil

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 07:49:04 PM »
I don't think getting real-time quotes for an ETF is easier than for indices themselves. S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq can be looked up on Google, Yahoo, etc. Getting real-time VOO quotes requires a deal with NYSEARCA.

Easy way, at least initially, would be to peg a few of the larger index ETFs.

ie. If investors want exposure to the SP500 just peg VOO.

Why would you "look up" prices? Wouldn't you let a peg do its thing naturally?

Because currently that's how BTSX works - delegates publish price feeds that determine valid short prices.

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Offline jsidhu

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 07:53:30 PM »
I don't think getting real-time quotes for an ETF is easier than for indices themselves. S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq can be looked up on Google, Yahoo, etc. Getting real-time VOO quotes requires a deal with NYSEARCA.

Easy way, at least initially, would be to peg a few of the larger index ETFs.

ie. If investors want exposure to the SP500 just peg VOO.

Why would you "look up" prices? Wouldn't you let a peg do its thing naturally?

Because currently that's how BTSX works - delegates publish price feeds that determine valid short prices.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

I think this is only for the short term to bring in liquidity... but longer term you would want to move to a truly decentralized solution? Wasn't the yield implemented to fix this issue anyway? With the yield you have people wanting to hold long bitUSD while we all know there are plenty of people willing to short anyway.
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Offline luckybit

Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 09:04:55 PM »
Regulators will probably look harder at that, than they would at currency activity.  So it should probably be a different chain, backed by a different company.

If BTSX and BitDJIA are on different chains, and a major jurisdiction like the US decides BitDJIA is illegal but BTSX is legal, then BTSX shouldn't take a bad hit.  If BTSX and BitDJIA are on the same chain, then any regulatory problems for BitDJIA have a decent chance of becoming problems for BTSX.
Mind telling me what there is for them to regulate? If Bitshares X community is more afraid of regulation than innovation I will go to the community which cares about innovation. Regulation shouldn't stop financial innovation from occurring.

In my opinion let them look. There is nothing they can regulate when you aren't using anything of theirs. I don't see any technical means for them to regulate either so as long as you don't rely on an external institution which they have jurisdiction over I don't see the danger.

I think people are so paranoid of regulation that they use the threat of regulation to prevent innovation.

Couldn't the central bank or the stock authority say Bitcoin itself is a security and ban it? I guess that means we should register our Bitcoin wallets now to avoid what they could do?

If they decide a BitAsset is illegal then all cryptocurrencies would be made illegal at the same time. It's an all or nothing thing.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 09:12:30 PM by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2014, 09:09:41 PM »
I think best way to do this would be a separated chain for peggs to indeces like Dow, NASDAQ, DAX and others .. not only for legal reasons but also for maintenance and compliance
foo you are finally up, I can go to sleep now, knowing the forum is in good hands. Good night.
I'm not a lawyer so don't take anything I say as legal advice, these are my personal opinions.

Forget about legal reasons. If you're afraid of legal reasons then perhaps you already broke the law by using BitUSD. Maybe you're already going to jail for counterfeiting. On the other hand if BitUSD is legal then so is everything else on the chain which is a BitAsset.

All BitAssets are the same. They are BTSX. All BTSX is source code, binary, reduced to speech.

The US Constitution gives the right to free speech. No software has ever been banned. Tor, Bittorrent or anything. So as long as you're not interacting with fiat, they have no authority to ban your speech.

They could go after you just out of spite and try to stretch the law to do it but why assume they will if they haven't banned Bitcoin? If they are going to ban anything it would have happened. Zerocoin would probably be banned first because Zerocoin actually scares law enforcement while these other technologies don't scare anyone.

I doubt anyone cares if you make money on digital currencies.  I also don't think anyone cares if you trade fake stocks or simulations. If they do care then it's not in their jurisdiction because it's all virtual anyway so what can they regulate when there is no central trusted party?

Hi,
Some people proposed bitassets for commodities (oil and gold) as the next step for BitsharesX. I believe it would be more promising to start bitassets for major market indices, like S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq. And possibly major Asian indices too. At least, real-time feeds for market indices are easier to get than for commodity futures, though I'm not entirely sure if there is a way to re-publish them for free. It would also potentially bring some long-term retirement investments to BitShares universe, and exiting a BTSX position to S&P500 instead of USD looks more logical if the money is used for capital gains, not just capital preservation.

I'm all for this. If you can do it decentralized, all in code, without any interaction with central authorities, why not? You can turn an index into a BitAsset and go for it. Anyone can launch a BitAsset to do this if there is enough demand for it.

I don't agree with my counterparts who say we should wait for permission from regulators (they don't understand the technology). I think if there will be regulation it will be on the Gateways which allow you to turn your BitAssets into legal assets. As long as the Gateways are regulated then the Bitshares chain and it's users don't have to worry about any regulations.

The only thing Bitshares developers should have to worry about is innovating. Ripple can worry about forming relationships with banks and the Gateways in and out should be regulated. Coinbase already is regulated and you have to buy Bitcoin through that to get Bitshares. The Ripple Gateway to turn BTSX (BitAssets) into legal securities will also be regulated. So regulation should take places on the edges.

If regulators get angry at the existence of Bitshares X and you're afraid of that then run a crippled "regulator friendly" forked version.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 09:25:32 PM by luckybit »
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busygin

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 09:40:36 PM »
Ok, if the response is basically "do it yourself", I'll think about it. First of all, I see the fee for a user-defined asset is 196,961.5872 BTSX now. Is it going to be the same forever or is there a dependency on something?
As for legal issues, I'm more worried about real-time market data re-publishing. I have doubts about the peg working well without the delegate price feed and shorting restrictions. One more thing I realized is that holding index-tracking ETFs pays dividends. Here we may have some interest for holding these bitassets, I'm not sure how good is this compensation...

Hi,
Some people proposed bitassets for commodities (oil and gold) as the next step for BitsharesX. I believe it would be more promising to start bitassets for major market indices, like S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq. And possibly major Asian indices too. At least, real-time feeds for market indices are easier to get than for commodity futures, though I'm not entirely sure if there is a way to re-publish them for free. It would also potentially bring some long-term retirement investments to BitShares universe, and exiting a BTSX position to S&P500 instead of USD looks more logical if the money is used for capital gains, not just capital preservation.

I'm all for this. If you can do it decentralized, all in code, without any interaction with central authorities, why not? You can turn an index into a BitAsset and go for it. Anyone can launch a BitAsset to do this if there is enough demand for it.

I don't agree with my counterparts who say we should wait for permission from regulators (they don't understand the technology). I think if there will be regulation it will be on the Gateways which allow you to turn your BitAssets into legal assets. As long as the Gateways are regulated then the Bitshares chain and it's users don't have to worry about any regulations.

The only thing Bitshares developers should have to worry about is innovating. Ripple can worry about forming relationships with banks and the Gateways in and out should be regulated. Coinbase already is regulated and you have to buy Bitcoin through that to get Bitshares. The Ripple Gateway to turn BTSX (BitAssets) into legal securities will also be regulated. So regulation should take places on the edges.

If regulators get angry at the existence of Bitshares X and you're afraid of that then run a crippled "regulator friendly" forked version.

Offline eagleeye

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Re: S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq would be cool to have in bitassets
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 10:02:36 PM »
Regulators will probably look harder at that, than they would at currency activity.  So it should probably be a different chain, backed by a different company.

If BTSX and BitDJIA are on different chains, and a major jurisdiction like the US decides BitDJIA is illegal but BTSX is legal, then BTSX shouldn't take a bad hit.  If BTSX and BitDJIA are on the same chain, then any regulatory problems for BitDJIA have a decent chance of becoming problems for BTSX.
Mind telling me what there is for them to regulate? If Bitshares X community is more afraid of regulation than innovation I will go to the community which cares about innovation. Regulation shouldn't stop financial innovation from occurring.

In my opinion let them look. There is nothing they can regulate when you aren't using anything of theirs. I don't see any technical means for them to regulate either so as long as you don't rely on an external institution which they have jurisdiction over I don't see the danger.

I think people are so paranoid of regulation that they use the threat of regulation to prevent innovation.

Couldn't the central bank or the stock authority say Bitcoin itself is a security and ban it? I guess that means we should register our Bitcoin wallets now to avoid what they could do?

If they decide a BitAsset is illegal then all cryptocurrencies would be made illegal at the same time. It's an all or nothing thing.

 +5% +5% +5%  As they say in the stock market picks "Winner Winner Chicken Dinner"

Do not be afraid of regulation just be prepared for it.

Do not let regulation stifle innovation.

 

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