Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: 5% annual fee. What is the point?  (Read 1277 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bitmarket

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
    • View Profile
    • BitShares TV
5% annual fee. What is the point?
« on: September 13, 2014, 05:01:40 AM »

I see many things I hate about it, but what is the point?

The only thing I can come up with is if btsx is in cold storage then people cannot change their delegate vote.   Is that is purpose?  To encourage frequent voting?
Host of BitShares.TV and Author of BitShares 101

Offline Shentist

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1605
    • View Profile
    • metaexchange
  • BTS: shentist
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2014, 05:06:50 AM »
yes

Offline ripplexiaoshan

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
    • View Profile
  • BTS: xiaoshan
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2014, 05:46:50 AM »
DPOS delegates maintain the stability of whole system, so stakeholder contribute to the system by voting for delegates, I think this is the point.
BTS ID:xiaoshan                   www.yoyow.org      www.btsabc.org      www.openledger.info

Offline joele

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
    • Regarding Bitcoin
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2014, 06:17:48 AM »
Also to burn lost coins

Offline puppies

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2014, 06:29:44 AM »
As far as I recall.  It was originally a part of tapos and was designed to prevent the ability to create too many coin days destroyed in regards to your stake.  I'm not exactly sure what the rationale for keeping it in these dpos days is.  I think the fact that it isn't yet implemented is proof that it isn't as important to Dpos as it was to tapos.   I would love to get a technical analysis on why it is still needed.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 06:31:17 AM by puppies »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2014, 06:37:42 AM »
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline puppies

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2014, 06:58:35 AM »
Thanks gamey.  In response I would love a more technical analysis of how blockchain pruning works.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Riverhead

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2014, 07:48:40 AM »
The coins are not burnt. They are returned to supply. This is for the purpose that gamey's link mentions but also as a lost coin and dust collector. For private keys that are lost for whatever reason (too small balance to move aka dust, death of key holder, damaged hardware, forgotten passwords, etc.). To prevent this fee any transaction will do. For cold storage create a new cold wallet and transfer funds to it. Not a huge burden for an annual event.

In my opinion the benefits to the coin and network as a whole far out weigh the burden of annual cold storage refreshes.

Offline luckybit

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2014, 07:57:07 AM »
Also to burn lost coins

Burning lost coins could be a problem though so I see his point. Therefore Bitshares X wouldn't be good for long long term store of value such as 20 years because of this fee.

The vast majority of people will never bump up against or feel this fee but I could imagine that it could be a possible scenario where someone could lose 100% of their holdings because they lost access to their private keys for years.

If you think you're going to not be able to access your private key for years then maybe you'll have to put your Bitshares wealth somewhere else. Bitshares X is primarily an exchange but there will be other DACs and some of them don't have to have the 5% fee.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline bitmarket

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
    • View Profile
    • BitShares TV
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2014, 09:21:08 AM »
So I was a victim of a substantial bitcoin heist.  My now hold my bitcoin in mutlisig cold storage paper wallets in several continents in several private vaults.

To achieve the same level of security without paying this fee, I would have to fly all over the world ever year, so yeah refreshing cold wallets every year is annoying as hell. For serious corporate investors this would absolutely be a huge problem.

Additionally I want people to put their btsx in cold storage.   Its helps drive the price up as they are not as quick to sell.

Further it seems quite rude.  Imagine if Apple or Amazon told shareholders that if they did not trade their shares every year, they would slugged with a 5% tax.  That would turn off people using it as a retirement investment.

It is pretty rude and disincentivises desirable behavior, however, if it is possible that "lost coins" will get "stuck" voting for a delegate, then I guess it is possible end up with an undesirable delegate.

If this is the real reason, then I can think of a way around it, but I think its pretty rude to leave it in there.

Someone mentioned it is not implemented though... did I read that right... it is not even part of the protocol anymore.

In that case, I will shut the hell up and move on with my life.
Host of BitShares.TV and Author of BitShares 101

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2014, 09:32:58 AM »

There are tons of things not implemented.  I think this is pretty low on the list.

As has been pointed out by Dan, holding data on the blockchain has a cost.  It isn't necessarily fair that everyone who has full client has to maintain data from others indefinitely without the owner of the data paying the network anything.

I'll add this to the wiki real quick.

I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • View Profile
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2014, 09:34:52 AM »
Reset all votes that are older than 1 year?

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 09:54:44 AM »

It might be that 5% inactivity has too much of a marketing cost.  It prevents people from just sitting on their BTSX which is usually desirable to other holders.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Riverhead

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 10:14:01 AM »
Bitmarket - do NOT shut the hell up. You are raising some very valid points and this is all part of the discussion of an evolving product/protocol.

While I have my views they are just mine and they are not cast in stone.

Offline bytemaster

Re: 5% annual fee. What is the point?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2014, 05:44:00 PM »
Perhaps we can provide an exemption for multisig accounts.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

Google+