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Offline mf-tzo

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short BTSX???
« on: September 28, 2014, 01:12:15 PM »

Do I understand this correctly? Is there the intention to create bitXTS that will be used to take short position to BTSX using as collateral bitUSD, Bitbitc etc??

I understand thr intention of this is to create more stability and liquidity but I believe it could seriously backfire against the appreciation of BTSX.

Please advise if I misunderstood this, because this idea just scared me a lot!!!

Offline xeroc

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 01:14:49 PM »
Uh? Where have you read that you can go short on BTSX using bitUSD as collateral? That's new to me
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 01:48:27 PM »
https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/beyond-bitcoin-community-dev-hangout-2014-9-26

@ min 30..

BM please discuss this as soon as possible because if I understand correctly and there is this possibility in the future this will have huge implications imho...

Offline xeroc

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 01:58:54 PM »
oh .. right ... BUT he mentioned that this will not be added into BitShares-X ..but maybe a different chain (ie. BitSharesY) ..
@ min 29:40 and 31:00
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 02:12:02 PM »
Ok...As long it is not on BTSX and it is on BTSY and BTSY honors at least with 90% BTSX shareholders with BTSY shares  I suppose this would be ok, since in the end of the day one can hold both (inflationary, deflationary) and be hedged. Otherwise we just create speculative selling pressure to BTSX by shorting BTSX for no reason.

I believe the reason Bitcoin is falling is because of the availability now on the market to short bitcoin with leverage in different platforms. People with lots of collateral short bitcoin all the time and create selling pressure and hugely benefit from bitcoin falling price when in the same time other idiots think aahhh bitcoin is cheap now...lets buy... I wouldn't like this to happen in BTSX...

BTSX is the bank of all cryptos and fiat which adds value because it is a decentralised bank with pegged assets that can move around the internet fast and secure. The increase of BTSX price will happen when there is sufficient trust and security on the system by increased demand.

Shorting BTSX will lead it to become a speculative altcoin. Thoughts?







Offline xeroc

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 02:23:26 PM »
Ok...As long it is not on BTSX and it is on BTSY and BTSY honors at least with
90% BTSX shareholders with BTSY shares  I suppose this would be ok, since in
the end of the day one can hold both (inflationary, deflationary) and be
hedged. Otherwise we just create speculative selling pressure to BTSX by
shorting BTSX for no reason.
That's what lead BM to decide that it will most certainly not end up in BTSX

I believe the reason Bitcoin is falling is because of the availability now on
the market to short bitcoin with leverage in different platforms. People with
lots of collateral short bitcoin all the time and create selling pressure and
hugely benefit from bitcoin falling price when in the same time other idiots
think aahhh bitcoin is cheap now...lets buy... I wouldn't like this to happen
in BTSX...
Agreed .. let's stell /r/bitcoin ;-) lol

BTSX is the bank of all cryptos and fiat which adds value because it is a
decentralised bank with pegged assets that can move around the internet fast
and secure. The increase of BTSX price will happen when there is sufficient
trust and security on the system by increased demand.

Shorting BTSX will lead it to become a speculative altcoin. Thoughts?
I have a feeling that your understanding of economics is MUCH bigger than mine
.. I am not the tech guy :)
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Offline bytemaster

Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 02:30:08 PM »
Shorting on a whole helps bring price stability by reducing the peaks of bubbles and the depth of corrections. 

All shorting is backed by long term bulls even in bitcoin.  These long bulls lend btc expecting long term appreciation despite enabling short term selling. 

A true bull would lend to a short then buy from that short.

Btsx has some fundamental social contract ideas tied to it that will prevent its supply from growing beyond 2 billion. 

I don't want to fragment the market but also don't want to leave a gaping opportunity for a competitor.   It will be interesting to see how the market evolves. 


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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: short BTSX???
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 03:05:36 PM »
Quote
Shorting on a whole helps bring price stability by reducing the peaks of bubbles and the depth of corrections. 

I agree in theory and when market manipulators don't exist. In practice I doubt about this in real life

All shorting is backed by long term bulls even in bitcoin.  These long bulls lend btc expecting long term appreciation despite enabling short term selling.

I seriously doubt about this in such an unregulated and iliquid market such as bitcoin. I have no proof of that whatsoever, just my imho

A true bull would lend to a short then buy from that short.

That is the theory if everything works as expected and the market is not manipulated. Even fiat currencies, stocks, equities are manipulated every day. This has led to the current crisis. Capitalism and free markets are not so effective and great in reality. I am starting to believe in a more communistic economic model, not yet developed and applied but at some point in the future will inevitably be developed in order to avoid wars.

Btsx has some fundamental social contract ideas tied to it that will prevent its supply from growing beyond 2 billion.

I thought that there were discussions in the past about increasing the supply more than 2 billion if needed even if this would lead to a small dilution to the shareholders in order to bring monetary stability and eventually more profits to the shareholders. Has this been dropped and the supply will never increase more than 2 billion?   

I don't want to fragment the market but also don't want to leave a gaping opportunity for a competitor.   It will be interesting to see how the market evolves. 

Fully with you on that. In order to do that I would assume though that this will be through BTSY which fully honor BTSX (with a small dilution maybe correct?

My confidence in BTSX and in creation of bitusd from short selling lies on the code itself and on the fact that indeed no one can do short selling without backing this x2 with collateral. This is the reason BTSX will eventually be worth billions imho. I don't think that short selling works so effectively in real market and in bitcoin I seriously doubt about it...

 

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