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Offline toast

Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« on: October 01, 2014, 03:09:49 PM »

I will switch to helping launch PTS on DPOS (doing the actual toolkit changes you need) when:

*  There is a dedicated PTS2 repository
    * We can reliably make a PTS snapshot at any time
    * The GUI is reskinned for PTS
    * Unmined PTS policy is decided (I suggest inflating for delegates according to mining schedule - use some for bounties required for transition)\
* ALL third-party services that use PTS are notified, especially:
    * Exchanges
    * Block explorers
    * Mining Pools
* Clear PR guidelines
    * What to do for upgrade process

Expect this list to grow as people get their hands dirty
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

clout

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 03:19:07 PM »
Is it not technically feasible to add PTS as an asset on BitShares X and have individuals import their wallets to claim those PTS?

Offline arhag

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 03:25:29 PM »
Is it not technically feasible to add PTS as an asset on BitShares X and have individuals import their wallets to claim those PTS?

Seriously. It makes far more sense to make it a user-issued asset with maxed out supply on the BitShares X blockchain (if technically possible).

And while your at it, mix in the AGS snapshot too to have a united AGS/PTS protoshare that future DACs can credit by at least 20%.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 03:28:17 PM by arhag »

Offline toast

Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 03:27:37 PM »
Is it not technically feasible to add PTS as an asset on BitShares X and have individuals import their wallets to claim those PTS?

Seriously. It makes far more sense to make it a user-issued asset with maxed out supply on the BitShares X blockchain (if technically possible).

Why does it make far more sense?

It is technically possible, anybody could do it at any time if they like. The symbol "PTS" is already reserved as a market-pegged though.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline arhag

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 03:29:32 PM »
Why does it make far more sense?

  • Less work
  • No need for another executable to run.
  • No need to manage a new set of delegates to vote for.
  • Better DPOS security because of the higher market cap of BTSX.

Offline testz

Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 03:30:37 PM »
I will switch to helping launch PTS on DPOS (doing the actual toolkit changes you need) when:

*  There is a dedicated PTS2 repository
    * We can reliably make a PTS snapshot at any time
    * The GUI is reskinned for PTS
    * Unmined PTS policy is decided (I suggest inflating for delegates according to mining schedule - use some for bounties required for transition)\
* ALL third-party services that use PTS are notified, especially:
    * Exchanges
    * Block explorers
    * Mining Pools

* Clear PR guidelines
    * What to do for upgrade process


Expect this list to grow as people get their hands dirty

As I tell before you can count me, I can take responsibility for things which I make as bold.

Offline toast

Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 03:31:28 PM »
Why does it make far more sense?

  • Less work
  • No need for another executable to run.
  • No need to manage a new set of delegates to vote for.
  • Better DPOS security because of the higher market cap of BTSX.
Go for it then, the OP is telling the people who keep insisting it needs a DPOS upgrade how to get started.
Maybe you can beat them to it as a user issued asset, or duke it out in this thread.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline GaltReport

Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 03:37:35 PM »
Is it not technically feasible to add PTS as an asset on BitShares X and have individuals import their wallets to claim those PTS?

Seriously. It makes far more sense to make it a user-issued asset with maxed out supply on the BitShares X blockchain (if technically possible).

And while your at it, mix in the AGS snapshot too to have a united AGS/PTS protoshare that future DACs can credit by at least 20%.

Interesting ideas.  That would be so cool.  One system to rule them all....(sort of).

Offline arhag

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 03:53:02 PM »
Go for it then, the OP is telling the people who keep insisting it needs a DPOS upgrade how to get started.
Maybe you can beat them to it as a user issued asset, or duke it out in this thread.

It would be really great to get all of the balances in the BitShares X blockchain at once though, say during one of the future hard forks. If that is not possible, then I guess people will have to donate some BTSX to pay for all the transaction fees necessary and quickly transfer all of the issued assets (I am going to name them PROTO in this post) to the appropriate addresses. Then trusted members of the community would have to look through the unspent transaction outputs to ensure they comply with the snapshots (or just have someone really trusted by the community, like toast or bytemaster, do the asset distribution in the first place). And only after the green light has been given by these trusted members would it be safe to start trading the PROTO assets on the BitShares X decentralized exchange. During this whole process from PTS snapshot until the green light has been given, all PTS trades everywhere would have to stop. After a successful transition PTS would become worthless (centralized exchanges can get rid of it, although the nice exchanges would credit people with PROTO IOUs just like they credited BTSX IOUs, and all PTS mining would stop for good).

So, who wants to help make this possible?

Edit: Also, PTS supply would be scaled up to 2 million in the snapshot for a total PROTO asset supply of 4 million (AGS + scaled PTS). Or rather, scale to something a tiny bit smaller than 2 million with the rest given to the PROTO asset issuer in order to repay the people who donated the BTSX to cover the fees of this process.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 03:59:59 PM by arhag »

Offline BTSdac

Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 04:25:29 PM »
Why does it make far more sense?

  • Less work
  • No need for another executable to run.
  • No need to manage a new set of delegates to vote for.
  • Better DPOS security because of the higher market cap of BTSX.
it is a cool thing  +5% +5%
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 04:28:02 PM »
Is it not technically feasible to add PTS as an asset on BitShares X and have individuals import their wallets to claim those PTS?

Seriously. It makes far more sense to make it a user-issued asset with maxed out supply on the BitShares X blockchain (if technically possible).

And while your at it, mix in the AGS snapshot too to have a united AGS/PTS protoshare that future DACs can credit by at least 20%.

I'm not against this and I see plenty of upside. However, one benefit of having PTS out on its own is that it theoretically reaches more people. It's another way in, an on-ramp to the BItShares ecosystem. Soon, with the way BTSX is going, that may not be a problem because people will be coming there first, not even knowing/caring about Bitcoin or coinmarketcap or exchanges. But having PTS out there now provides one more tentacle for this ecosystem to attract people. That would be the main reason to keep PTS out there in the world beyond BitShares X and also to showcase an example of a simpler DPoS coin. But again, I'm open to either possibility.

Offline arhag

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 04:29:31 PM »
Here is another way to phrase what I am proposing.

You can think of BTSX as an altcoin that was allocated 50% to an AGS snapshot and 50% to a PTS snapshot. It changed the social consensus in that future forks of the BitShares X DAC are expected to snapshot BTSX rather than AGS/PTS (and that is perfectly acceptable to our community).

Similarly, you can think of PROTO as an altcoin that is allocated 50% to AGS, (50-x)% to a PTS snapshot, and x% to the creators of the coin. The value of x will likely be very small (x < 1%?) and just enough to cover the fees involved for this process. This coin is guaranteed to never have any inflation. PROTO, like BTSX, also changes the social consensus. Instead of crediting at least 10% to AGS and 10% to PTS to get the support of the BitShares community, now DAC creators need to credit at least 20% to PROTO holders to get the same support.

Just like how the snapshot of PTS for BTSX caused a massive drop in price of PTS, the PROTO snapshot will cause a massive drop in the price of PTS. PTS will still exist after the snapshot, but because of the severe change in the social consensus, we expect its price to drop 100% down to zero. This means it makes no sense anymore to keep mining it, and it makes no sense anymore for exchanges to list them for trading.

Just like any other DAC snapshot, we need to give everyone clear notice about when the snapshot will occur and make it clear to everyone that it means that the price of PTS will drop to zero after the snapshot. And of course, this all requires getting the broad support of the community in agreeing to this change in the social consensus. Also, to reduce trading downtime, we should choose the snapshot date  to be at a point in time when we are actually ready to quickly transition over to the PROTO asset on the BitShares X blockchain.


Offline yidaidaxia

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 04:40:58 PM »
Go for it then, the OP is telling the people who keep insisting it needs a DPOS upgrade how to get started.
Maybe you can beat them to it as a user issued asset, or duke it out in this thread.

It would be really great to get all of the balances in the BitShares X blockchain at once though, say during one of the future hard forks. If that is not possible, then I guess people will have to donate some BTSX to pay for all the transaction fees necessary and quickly transfer all of the issued assets (I am going to name them PROTO in this post) to the appropriate addresses. Then trusted members of the community would have to look through the unspent transaction outputs to ensure they comply with the snapshots (or just have someone really trusted by the community, like toast or bytemaster, do the asset distribution in the first place). And only after the green light has been given by these trusted members would it be safe to start trading the PROTO assets on the BitShares X decentralized exchange. During this whole process from PTS snapshot until the green light has been given, all PTS trades everywhere would have to stop. After a successful transition PTS would become worthless (centralized exchanges can get rid of it, although the nice exchanges would credit people with PROTO IOUs just like they credited BTSX IOUs, and all PTS mining would stop for good).

So, who wants to help make this possible?

Edit: Also, PTS supply would be scaled up to 2 million in the snapshot for a total PROTO asset supply of 4 million (AGS + scaled PTS). Or rather, scale to something a tiny bit smaller than 2 million with the rest given to the PROTO asset issuer in order to repay the people who donated the BTSX to cover the fees of this process.

I think transfer pts to btsx inside market as an user defined assets makes more sense to me too. Besides development efficiency, another more important rationale to me is that it could bring more liquidity for btsx inside market, so it will be helpful to peg and health of btsx inside market, which is real important for the ecosystem now. In the other hand, as arhag indicated it's really viable.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 04:59:26 PM by yidaidaxia »
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Offline gamey

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2014, 08:12:14 PM »

This is an interesting discussion.

Just realize that if you make it into an asset, then there will never be a top 10 PTS crypto-coin.  It will always be an asset from here on out.

Also, it now relies on people to download and become involved with BTSX first, when BTSX was the product of PTS.  In some ways this could be good, but overall not so much.

I'm ambivalent about the whole thing in general.
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Offline ripplexiaoshan

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Re: Checklist for PTS to DPOS: You can help!
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 08:45:09 PM »
It seems that how to implementation the no-mining PTS is still very controversy, why don't we start a poll?

 Personally, I prefer integrating PTS inside of BTSX. It will be the first valuable user issued asset, and will add value to BTSX wallet too, because at least there are more needs to open your wallet.

The reason that I don't like DPOS PTS is: 1\The value of PTS will be lower and lower as more snapshots of interesting DACs are conducted, and eventually will approach zero, if there is no new DAC for a period of time. It's not wise to invest on such stuff, even the cost of DPOS is not high; 2\ No PTS shareholder like their shares being diluted when only delegates benefit from it.
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