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Offline Rune

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Hey all.

I'm thinking of putting a significant chunk of my btc holdings into bitshares after having realized the potential of DPOS (everything I dreamed bitcoin would be).

That said i have some questions about bitshares x that I haven't really been able to find proper information about. Some of them might be dumb or overly paranoid, so be warned. Most are about Dan Larimer and his role as lead developer/"CEO" of the network. I see no reason to not trust him, but I think it is important to know this information and it would help me determine how much I'm willing to invest.

1) how many developers are working on the bitshares? Are there any independent developers not "controlled" by dan larimer? Is development being organized solely through the github framework?

2) what exactly does dan larimer own of the bitshares x network through the invictus company, other than his personal shares? Are the amount of his personal shares disclosed? What about other core developers?

3) does Dan have any official "policy" in the event of a conflict between him and the delegates?

4) what are the amounts of "network owned shares", such as the "marketing fund" that I have seen mentioned elsewhere.

5) I have seen mention of a chinese venture fund seeding the bitshares development. What kind of compensation from the network have they received? Has the amount of shares they have been given been disclosed? Do they have any special rights to control the network?

6) are there any huge early stakeholders known, and what are their stakes?(in addition to the Chinese venture fund and developers) What are your assessment of the risk of them hijacking the delegates?

7) does dan larimer intend to stay on as project lead indefinitely, or does he plan to retire when the system is mature, like satoshi?

Thanks everyone for answering, and grats on being early investors in what is clearly the technologically superior blockchain.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 06:36:25 PM »
Welcome to BitShares, Rune! The longer you stick around here, the more you learn to trust these folks who are developing the BitShares DACs. They are good people; it's almost like the old days of a family business, but one where the full community is honored and incorporated into the decision-making as well as they possibly can be. I will wait for someone with more specific information to answer your questions. All I will add is that I was skeptical at first of putting great trust in one team with such an ambitious vision, but they are solidly putting it into practice before our eyes while listening and incorporating community feedback.

Since I first looked into BitShares, I have gradually increased my trust in it, so much so that I no longer hold any Bitcoin or other crypto coins. There is nothing else out there with this kind of promise, both in terms of its ability to make positive change in the world AND solidly reward its believers. Dan Larimer is a freaking genius. This is a grand experiment and there are no guarantees, but if it works as well as I and others believe it will work, then Dan Larimer and his team will go down in history. I have never seen someone who is so universally respected as a highly skilled programmer who also has a nearly all-encompassing understanding of the economics involved. Plus, he's pretty savvy at spotting business trends and he's able to surround himself with people who complement his understanding, trusting in their contributions as well. And if he got hit by a bus tomorrow (which I hope never happens), this technology has been birthed on the blockchain with plenty of smart developers able to continue it...much bigger than any one person now. You've come to the right place!

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:38:41 PM by donkeypong »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 06:39:37 PM »
Hey all.

I'm thinking of putting a significant chunk of my btc holdings into bitshares
after having realized the potential of DPOS (everything I dreamed bitcoin would
be).
Heyho .. very welcome to the community!

That said i have some questions about bitshares x that I haven't really been
able to find proper information about. Some of them might be dumb or overly
paranoid, so be warned. Most are about Dan Larimer and his role as lead
developer/"CEO" of the network. I see no reason to not trust him, but I think
it is important to know this information and it would help me determine how
much I'm willing to invest.
Sure .. do you investigation properly!

BTW, we have a "stupid questions thread":
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8390.0
mostly technical questions there

1) how many developers are working on the bitshares? Are there any independent
developers not "controlled" by dan larimer? Is development being organized
solely through the github framework?
No single developer is working on bitshares. .. thats because bitshares is a brand .. a ecosystem ..
What you most certainly mean is either the bitshares toolkit which is developed
by the developers of Invictus Innovations and some others .. (should all be
mentioned at the team page at bitshares.org)
... or you are talking about bitshares-x (a 'fork' of the toolkit) .. which is
basically also "maintained" and not developed (same people, just different
legal entity)

Development happens solely over github (AFAIK)

2) what exactly does dan larimer own of the bitshares x network through the
invictus company, other than his personal shares? Are the amount of his
personal shares disclosed? What about other core developers?
- personal shares
- shares that correspond to the AGS address (PTS) (relatively big stake)

The AGS donations have been sent to a Angel address which held PTS during
snapshot .. Thisway, the whole development is payed. That's why it was a
'donation' and not an investment.

My guess is that Dan controls about 100M to 180M BTSX .. (just a guess)

3) does Dan have any official "policy" in the event of a conflict between him
and the delegates?
The only thing he can do is remove votes from the delegates. This is currently
his 'only' power (except for changing the code base) .. However, this power
worth less than 10% which means, once the latest delegate has more than 20%
votes, Dan cannot really "threaten" delegates.

The blockchain is out! Stakeholders decide about the delegates. Hopefully, the
stakeholders start voting more and more ... so that Dans influence vanishes

4) what are the amounts of "network owned shares", such as the "marketing fund"
that I have seen mentioned elsewhere.

Currently the USD reserve fund (pays the yield) has like 5666.8171 USD
(blockchain_get_asset USD BTSX) .. The marketing fund is not network owned ..
I3 (Dan) is in control of them

5) I have seen mention of a chinese venture fund seeding the bitshares
development. What kind of compensation from the network have they received? Has
the amount of shares they have been given been disclosed? Do they have any
special rights to control the network?
The payouts from the AngelShare funds (that's what I would interpret the
'development'/'marketing' fund) has a spreadsheet available that used to list all expenses and payouts.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTwk-e7yzJydDFnQmlkTVlkbWpubnJBbzR2UG5ucnc&usp=sharing#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/a/invictus-innovations.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTwk-e7yzJydFZ3bVVWT0o1OUwzXzdESHFBY0FkUWc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Not sure if payouts from bitshares-x are included ..

So: good question!

6) are there any huge early stakeholders known, and what are their stakes?(in
addition to the Chinese venture fund and developers) What are your
assessment of the risk of them hijacking the delegates?
I saw one single 50M BTSX transaction on the network .. but I guess that is
controlled by a CEO as it was voting for init-delegates.
Besides that I heard of an early investor that payed 10BTC a day to the AGS funds.
No idea who it is.

7) does dan larimer intend to stay on as project lead indefinitely, or does he
plan to retire when the system is mature, like satoshi?
.. at least he cannot 'disappear' :)

I am almost certain, that Dan will pimp his baby .. and once BitSharesX is
feature complete he will start a new chain with a completly different goal.
Lot's of discussion are going on that result in changes to the market engine
that cannot be implemented in btsx as that might f*** up investors stake. Dan
always stated that he is going to do whatever possible that maximizes
shareholders value.

Thanks everyone for answering, and grats on being early investors in what is
clearly the technologically superior blockchain.
Welcome, and thanks for asking excellent questions!
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline feedthemcake

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 06:40:44 PM »
Welcome to BitShares, Rune! The longer you stick around here, the more you learn to trust these folks who are developing the BitShares DACs. They are good people; it's almost like the old days of a family business, but one where the full community is honored and incorporated into the decision-making as well as they possibly can be. I will wait for someone with more specific information to answer your questions. All I will add is that I was skeptical at first of putting great trust in one team with such an ambitious vision, but they are solidly putting it into practice before our eyes while listening and incorporating community feedback.

Since I first looked into BitShares, I have gradually increased my trust in it, so much so that I no longer hold any Bitcoin or other crypto coins. There is nothing else out there with this kind of promise, both in terms of its ability to make positive change in the world AND solidly reward its believers. Dan Larimer is a freaking genius. This is a grand experiment and there are no guarantees, but if it works as well as I and others believe it will work, then Dan Larimer and his team will go down in history. I have never seen someone who is so universally respected as a highly skilled programmer who also has a nearly all-encompassing understanding of the economics involved. Plus, he's pretty savvy at spotting business trends and he's able to surround himself with people who complement his understanding, trusting in their contributions as well. And if he got hit by a bus tomorrow (which I hope never happens), this technology has been birthed on the blockchain with plenty of smart developers able to continue it...much bigger than any one person now. You've come to the right place!

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 07:11:35 PM »


Thanks for the great questions, and thanks to everyone, especially xeroc for all these great answers.


1) how many developers are working on the bitshares? Are there any independent
developers not "controlled" by dan larimer? Is development being organized
solely through the github framework?
No single developer is working on bitshares. .. thats because bitshares is a brand .. a ecosystem ..
What you most certainly mean is either the bitshares toolkit which is developed
by the developers of Invictus Innovations and some others .. (should all be
mentioned at the team page at bitshares.org)
... or you are talking about bitshares-x (a 'fork' of the toolkit) .. which is
basically also "maintained" and not developed (same people, just different
legal entity)


A 'fork' in the toolkit already?  Please describe this more.  What are these two 'forks', who is doing them, which one is used in the wallet, which one do the delegates use....?  What different dirrections are these forks taking?

My guess is that Dan controls about 100M to 180M BTSX .. (just a guess)

So that is around 5% to 9%, respectively  of all bitshares, right?  What evidence do you have for this?  I've heard that the largest single stake holder is about 10%, but again, no evidence was provided.  but it sounds like Bitshares X is more widely distributed than any other currency.  In other words not very many people with enough stake to take things over, or kill the market if they decide to sell.


3) does Dan have any official "policy" in the event of a conflict between him
and the delegates?

A huge threat, right now, is Dan dying in an accident of any kind.  The kind of governance like you are asking about is also a huge problem, and in my opinion, what is holding the entire industry back.  But, in my opinion, the bitshares community, with their voting systems, and other systems in the work, they could be the first real crypto currency community to solve this problem in a way that not only amplifies the Bytemasters wisdom, but in a way that amplifies the wisdom of the entire crowd.  But this, by no means, has happened yet, so is definitely still a concern.



Online Shentist

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 07:16:12 PM »
Quote
Quote from: xeroc on Today at 06:39:37 PM
My guess is that Dan controls about 100M to 180M BTSX .. (just a guess)

So that is around 5% to 9%, respectively  of all bitshares, right?  What evidence do you have for this?  I've heard that the largest single stake holder is about 10%, but again, no evidence was provided.  but it sounds like Bitshares X is more widely distributed than any other currency.  In other words not very many people with enough stake to take things over, or kill the market if they decide to sell.

his personal stake is unknown, but via I3 shares he controls 5-9% of BTSX via PTS donors for february 28 snapshot. i don't know the exact numbers.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 07:45:05 PM »
Thanks for the great questions, and thanks to everyone, especially xeroc for all these great answers.

A 'fork' in the toolkit already?  Please describe this more.  What are these
two 'forks', who is doing them, which one is used in the wallet, which one do
the delegates use....?  What different dirrections are these forks taking?

It's a fork of the software (not a fork of the blockchain!)

basically the developers @ bitshares.org (mainly invictus innovations) develop
a toolkit (that makes it easier for others to integrate their own business idea)

That particular software is the basis toolkit .. it contains
DPOS,TITAN,decentralized markets, bitassets, .....

The DAC it self .. (the blockchain)  ... is released by some 3rd party.
In the case of BitSharesX (the DAC .. software: slightly tuned toolkit) the DAC
is maintained by dacsunlimited .. IMHO it's the same poeple but a different
legal entity!

There are other DACs coming (MUSIC, DNS, PLAY, VOTE .....) which ALL build on
the same toolkit (basis software) but have different businesses and will be
maintained again by different legal entities.

So that is around 5% to 9%, respectively  of all bitshares, right?  What
evidence do you have for this?  I've heard that the largest single stake holder
is about 10%, but again, no evidence was provided.  but it sounds like
Bitshares X is more widely distributed than any other currency.  In other words
not very many people with enough stake to take things over, or kill the market
if they decide to sell.
Only BM knows for sure .. but if you take a look at how many PTS were in the
Angelshares donation address (PANGEL.....) you will see a huge amount .. and
for that stake, I3 (DAN) received the respective BTSX .. cant telly you numbers
..  but I have a feeling that roughly 10% could be accurate ... I also guess
that the i3-CEO in china (Bo Shen) also has some private or business stake in BTSX.
Numbers are IMHO not official and also don't need to be .. it's there business :)

A huge threat, right now, is Dan dying in an accident of any kind.  The kind of
governance like you are asking about is also a huge problem, and in my opinion,
what is holding the entire industry back.  But, in my opinion, the
bitshares community, with their voting systems, and other systems in
the work, they could be the first real crypto currency community to
solve this problem in a way that not only amplifies the Bytemasters
wisdom, but in a way that amplifies the wisdom of the entire crowd.
But this, by no means, has happened yet, so is definitely still a
concern.
BM won't die .. he's the Chuck Norris of crypto .. death fears BM!

but serisouly, IMHO, the stake does not 'belong' to BM but to the business I3
and if something happens to individuals I am sure there is a 'backup' key in a
locker. Otherwise the stake would simply be lost.
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Offline speedy

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 09:59:13 PM »
A month ago they actually used AGS funds buy-back BTSX, because they were that confident of their product.

Thats something to think about.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 10:01:34 PM »
A month ago they actually used AGS funds buy-back BTSX, because they were that confident of their product.


And so were their contractors who happily agreed to be paid in BTSX. That's why their money is there instead of in Bitcoin or fiat currency.

Offline Rune

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2014, 05:29:14 PM »
Thanks for the informative replies :)

Offline Ander

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 05:58:55 PM »
A month ago they actually used AGS funds buy-back BTSX, because they were that confident of their product.

Thats something to think about.

When did this occur exactly, and at what price?  Was it at ~1 cent prior to the late august price increase?  Was it the cause of the price increase?
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 06:03:12 PM »
It was not a cause of the increase. I'm sure it didn't hurt, whenever they did this, but the AGS funds would have been a small fraction of that volume. Also, they informed the community this would be happening before they did it, so they were consciously trying to avoid hurting anyone by doing so.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Questions about developers and early stakeholders by a prospective buyer
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 06:16:59 PM »
We didn't push the price up.  We let others sell into us and the volume of our purchase was a fraction of a percent of the total run up in price.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

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